Full suspension vs hardtail, kickstand vs mtbfree, easier?

[mr_opjones]

It's totally dependent on the terrain.

[ColorVoyeur]

While braking and line choice are easier, the ability to throw your bike around is reduced by the added weight and slop of the suspension. I'd say on that line it's nearly a wash and mostly up to the rider to get to the bottom, not the bike.

[iamkickstand]

Called out lol.

The way you made skeleton sound you explain exactly why in your post that I don't think F's would make the trail any easier. I think fs allows you to be faster on descents, but I don't think it allows you to ride a trail once previously deemed unrideable on a hardtail given similar Geo. Of course comparing your chameleon to your dirtbag yes the dirtnag will make most technical sections easier/faster. But I was considering low speed Xc bike riding over super tech.

Take pro Dh for example, I don't think that would be any easier on my fuel, as it would be on your chameleon, in fact id argue neither would be significantly faster than the other.
Now I won't argue that the entire course overall the fuel may be faster, but in the rock garden of pro Dh alone I don't think you have enough speed on an Xc bike in there....
2 pages already, candy, babies, taking....

[300hp]

I find that section of the trail equally difficult on a hardtail, my full suspension trail bike, and my downhill bike. On my DH bike, I'm going faster, so things like line choice and managing two wheel drifts are harder, whereas on a hardtail, I'm going slower, so traction is less of an issue, but fore/aft balance becomes much harder and more difficult.

For example, when I rode that section yesterday, I was on my trail bike. I gapped a section of roots I had not before and rode it out as a result of my suspension, resulting in more speed. While the suspension made it easier for me to drop a foot while turning 90 degrees in the air to find the transition, the added speed from said move made the next section more difficult. I had to let my drifting rear tire drift into a fence post, unweight it, and let it ping like a pendulum off the post to set me up for the next turn. This was harder and sketchier than anything I had done before.

There is an argument that can be made for the advantages of riding that section of trail rigid as well. While it requires MUCH more body english and technical skill, you know EXACTLY what the bike is going to do, because the fork and rear end are not going to compress and rebound. You have one less variable to deal with.

I think that faster/slower and easier/harder are independent of each other.

I'm just glad I could give you guys a section to talk about

MTB free has a video of the run he can post for perspective.

[mtbfree]

... but I don't think it allows you to ride a trail once previously deemed unrideable on a hardtail given similar Geo.

This was not the question. We were debating whether it would be easier... if a rider is good enough to ride a trail on one bike, that person can probably ride it on any other bike that has similar geometry.

Take pro Dh for example, I don't think that would be any easier on my fuel, as it would be on your chameleon, in fact id argue neither would be significantly faster than the other.
Now I won't argue that the entire course overall the fuel may be faster, but in the rock garden of pro Dh alone I don't think you have enough speed on an Xc bike in there....

This I completely disagree with. Rock gardens are the #1 obstacle that FS helps out with. I don't know about you, but I would definitely be able to carry more speed through there on even a 100mm travel XC bike than I would on my Chameleon. As someone who has switched back and forth from FS to hardtail to FS to hardtail (yes, I meant to type that twice) for XC riding, you're not going to convince me that a rock garden or a rocky descent will be just as easy on a hardtail, unless the rocks are so big and the spacing is such that you actually have to hop from one to the other like a trials rider.

I think that faster/slower and easier/harder are independent of each other.

I don't. If I can ride trail faster on one bike than the other, that's the first indicator to me that it was easier. Another great indicator is how fatigued you are at the end. If one bike requires significantly more input from the rider to make it through a section, to me that means it was more difficult.

MTB free has a video of the run he can post for perspective.

*beep*, I have lots of video editing to do

[iamkickstand]

... but I don't think it allows you to ride a trail once previously deemed unrideable on a hardtail given similar Geo.

This was not the question. We were debating whether it would be easier... if a rider is good enough to ride a trail on one bike, that person can probably ride it on any other bike that has similar geometry.

Take pro Dh for example, I don't think that would be any easier on my fuel, as it would be on your chameleon, in fact id argue neither would be significantly faster than the other.
Now I won't argue that the entire course overall the fuel may be faster, but in the rock garden of pro Dh alone I don't think you have enough speed on an Xc bike in there....

This I completely disagree with. Rock gardens are the #1 obstacle that FS helps out with. I don't know about you, but I would definitely be able to carry more speed through there on even a 100mm travel XC bike than I would on my Chameleon. As someone who has switched back and forth from FS to hardtail to FS to hardtail (yes, I meant to type that twice) for XC riding, you're not going to convince me that a rock garden or a rocky descent will be just as easy on a hardtail, unless the rocks are so big and the spacing is such that you actually have to hop from one to the other like a trials rider. If you can not plow over, or skip through from rock to rock and have to actually pick your way down the hill at near walking speed a FS bike will not perform any better than a hard tail, in fact I would argue the hardtail would be better in some instances.

I think that faster/slower and easier/harder are independent of each other.

I don't. If I can ride trail faster on one bike than the other, that's the first indicator to me that it was easier. Another great indicator is how fatigued you are at the end. If one bike requires significantly more input from the rider to make it through a section, to me that means it was more difficult.

MTB free has a video of the run he can post for perspective.

, I have lots of video editing to do

That's exactly my point. Suspension will NOT give a rider the ability to clear a section of trail he has previously been unable to clear. That is EXACTLY my point. it does NOT make it easier to ride, more comfortable? yes, more forgiving? Maybe, faster? possibly, but not always.
You're completely missing my point, but thats ok, I like watching you guys type a lot.

fyi, hardtails don't make the trail harder, and suspension doesn't make it easier.

You mean to tell me that you can clean the rock garden on pro DH with out putting a foot down on your dirtbag, but you stand no chance on your hard tail?

[300hp]

freemtb:

Faster brings with it new variables/concerns/techniques, thus negating riding faster on a full suspension bike being easier

Now, if you want to argue that riding a certain section of trail on a hardtail and the same section of trail on a full suspension rig might be easier at the hardtail rate of speed, I think that argument carries more merit....until you consider a section of trail like a steep fire road climb. There, riding the full suspension at the same rate of speed as the hardtail could be substantially more difficult.

To further wrench it....that same section of trail we rode....would it have been easier on a 80mm full suspension 29er with race geometry (71 degree head angle), or on your more relaxed hardtail chameleon>?

Aside from comparing extremes, like a West Virginia rock garden on a dual crown dh beast to a carbon rigid 29er, there are too many variables to go either way.

PS, ride sunday?

[mtbfree]

PS, ride sunday?

Can't Sunday, got family *beep* going on. Moving into the new house Saturday, but might be able to swing a short ride then.

[AllMountin']

Rock gardens are the #1 obstacle that FS helps out with.

Case in point: A coworker friend and I got into this game at the same time a couple years back. He got shafted by fate, blowing out his knee in spectacular fashion. He lost a full year of trail riding, and is a few thousand miles/several dozen trails in several states behind me in riding as a result. I am light years ahead of him in terms of fitness, technical ability, and virtually any tangible measure in MTBing.

But... there is this dry, rocky creek bed in Owosso. Essentially, it is a fifty yard(probably more) rock garden, with turns and other obstacles. A mix of baby heads, larger rocks, and smaller rocks. Some fixed and some free. Pretty challenging stuff. Low speed tech is something of a specialty for me, but I ride full rigid. I started down the creek bed and was doing pretty well, traversing 20 or 30 yards before making a mistake that caused me to put a foot down. To my amazement, my friend went cruising right on by me on his fancy pants, plush, FS Trek Fuel. He completed the whole section without stopping.

Now, this guy has never ridden a non-local trail, and I don't know that he's ever even ridden a proper rock garden on a bike. The only explanation that I have is that the rig made cleaning that creek bed much easier.

The OP asked simply about HT vs FS, and not full rigid, but the difference is mostly a matter of degree. My simple answer would be YES. FS makes cleaning SOME TTFs easier. It makes cleaning entire trails harder, from a fitness standpoint.