Clips vs. Flats, James Wilson

[mtbfree]

Now, before you start tearing into me for starting a new thread about something that has seemingly been debated to death, hear me out and read the articles and/or listen to the pod-cast linked below. If you haven't heard of James Wilson, he's quickly making a name for himself as one of the premier mountain bike training gurus in the US. He's worked with numerous pros in both XC and DH disciplines, including Aaron Gwin, the reigning World Cup Downhill champion who trained with him for the three years leading up to his winning WC season. Well, it seems that Mr. Wilson has quite a beef with clipless pedals, and he actually uses facts and a vast MTB training experience to back up his claims. Don't get me wrong, I've ridden clipped in on every XC ride I've done in the past 7 or 8 years (practically my entire MTB riding career), but this guy is threatening to change my mind. I've never heard an argument against clipless pedals that actually sounded like it was grounded in reality, before now (most of the time I get the distinct impression that the person talking just doesn't like clips due to personal preference and/or fear of being unable to get a foot free if necessary).

So, read up, listen in, and let the debate begin!

James Wilson - Flats vs. Clips: please prove me wrong

James Wilson - Top 3 Clipless pedal myths

James Wilson - Flats vs. clips podcast

[c0nsumer]

The one point that I don't see him cover is that some people really like having their feet mostly attached to the bike. I am someone who likes this.

[mtbfree]

The one point that I don't see him cover is that some people really like having their feet mostly attached to the bike. I am someone who likes this.

Right. He tries to take an objective point of view and not base his argument around personal preference, which is exactly why his argument is persuasive. Personally, I enjoy having my feet attached to the pedals as well... but it's mostly because that's what I'm used to. I don't use clipless pedals when I ride downhill because I know that it's more dangerous. I'm now considering starting to ride XC on flats as well, if for no other reason than to improve my ability on the bike without using clips as a crutch.

Also, Disclaimer: I hadn't listened to the podcast at the time of my original post, but now that I have, I'll say this: the podcast seems more biased by personal experience and injury prevention than the articles are, but it still makes some valid points. I'd recommend reading the articles over listening to the pod-cast if you have to choose.

[ihateplaindave]

His logic is flawed in at least two areas. In one area he argues against strongly and at length about 'power'. I have never read or heard that this is a big arguement for clipless pedals. The arguement I've always heard is 'efficiency'. So he is kinda creating a strawman and knocking it down. The other area I have a problem with concerns the 'pulling the leg out of the way'. My experience, starting the first time I rode a SS up a hill, is that I pull like h*ll on the upstroke (not just get the leg out of way).

[Doc_d]

The bottom line is that I've ridden both ways, and for me clipless is FAR superior to riding flats.

Watch a road sprinter like Cavendish put out 1600+ watts during a finishing sprint. I can pretty much guarentee you he'd never be able to do that without being clipped in. Not only would he not be able to get the 1600+ watts to the ground, he'd probably slip off his pedals and crash horribly.

[b_b]

He makes some good points. The trails around here are pretty tame so clipless is not much of an issue, but I suspect they might be less optimal in more gnarly situations. I took his writings as not necessarily condemning clipless, but challenging people to keep an open mind and choose accordingly.

[mtbfree]

He does actually talk about the fact that when riding long distances over relatively non-technical terrain, clipless will allow you to ride harder for longer. And he explicitly points out that clipless was developed for the road and works well in that environment. The main point about of the "power" argument is that the gains experienced by the average rider are minimal, and that if you learn how to put the power down on flat pedals, you'll be a better rider for it.

He makes a good point using the example of track-athletes: Runners don't wear their track spikes every day. They use them as an enhancement for race-day situations. If you learn how to ride efficiently without being clipped in, you're going to be faster when you clip in for race-day situations.

He makes some good points. The trails around here are pretty tame so clipless is not much of an issue, but I suspect they might be less optimal in more gnarly situations. I took his writings as not necessarily condemning clipless, but challenging people to keep an open mind and choose accordingly.

Exactly.

[c0nsumer]

One other reason why I wouldn't want to wear flats is the risk of fairly serious shin or calf injury if I do slip off quality (read: somewhat pointy) platforms, and I don't want to wear pads while riding.

[mtbfree]

One other reason why I wouldn't want to wear flats is the risk of fairly serious shin or calf injury if I do slip off quality (read: somewhat pointy) platforms, and I don't want to wear pads while riding.

A very good point. I've got massive scars on my left shin from riding BMX and DH without shin protection (or clipless pedals)... it's certainly not pretty when it happens. Personally, though, the only times I've slipped a pedal and torn up my shins have been when I've been landing hard - i.e. casing jumps, drops to flat, etc... Not sure how great the risk is during XC rides.

[Laser4G63]

Meh, to each their own. I use, and have used, clipless for the majority of the time I have been riding. I try not to make a big deal out of things like this. I just want to get out and ride and not over think every minor detail.

[TenSpeed]

The one point that I don't see him cover is that some people really like having their feet mostly attached to the bike. I am someone who likes this.

I think that this one of the main reasons why I continue to ride clipless.

One other reason why I wouldn't want to wear flats is the risk of fairly serious shin or calf injury if I do slip off quality (read: somewhat pointy) platforms, and I don't want to wear pads while riding.

This is the number 1 reason that my wife and I both switched to clipless. I got sick and tired of the pedal bites on my shins and the blood dripping down my leg afterwards. She got tired of her feet always slipping off the pedals when she needed them to be planted properly. I found myself either riding with too much heel on the pedal, or too much toe. Not where I wanted to be.

There is no wrong or right regarding this, just like 26 vs. 29. It all comes down to personal preference.

[xcrdr]

I just know that I am jealous of my kids (26 and 30) because they can go back and forth from flats to clips and not miss a beat. Jumps, bunny hops or what have you. They need to time going from one to another. Me, not so much. Guess raising them on both has paid off. If we show up at a trail and someone forget SPD shoes they just ride on sneakers and still keep up. That would kill my feet and I'm sure injury would occur.

[okeja]

My road commuter is always clipped and my townie is always flats.
I swap between flats & clippped on my MTB and BMX bikes kinda often. Depends on mood and where riding.


I would be interested to learn more about the knee injuries, specific to clipless pedal use, he mentions.
..and also like to understand what he means by using the hips to pedal through the dead spot

I remember much about knee problems in the early days of clipless pedals; but not really since.
Seems to me that to use my hips, I would need to rock them; which is bad right?

[ignition16]

I ride flats exclusively. Tried clipless, but wasn't a huge fan.

I really like not having my feet attached to the bike. I feel like it is more dangerous than it's worth for a recreational rider / sport racer. I also enjoy the feeling of dancing around on the pedals.

It seems like if you need to have clipless so you don't have the risk of get your feet bucked off, you probably need to work on riding more smoothly. I had that problem when I first started riding, but had very little problem with it last year. It's just a skill you need to learn as a mountain biker in order to be smooth. Flat pedals force you to learn it.

I also don't have much problem with a lack of power on flat pedals, in fact, I ride a SS and would say that climbing is one of my strengths.

I think it all comes down to preference, and for me, I see no reason to attach myself to my bike. I have plenty of fun, and I'm fast enough for those I ride with. If you want to ride clips, go for it. Just don't count out flats completely. James brings up some good points.

[balexander87]

My take away is that clipless pedals are not necessarily the "end all, be all". I think his suggestion that riders should start out on flats makes sense. Clipless pedals are a useful tool and that tool becomes all the more useful if you have properly developed the underlying skills. They definitely have their place, but I feel like he's just challenging the idea that they are the default best option for everyone in every situation.

I personally ride flats. My plan is to continue to use them while trying to stick with guys riding clipless who are on the "next level" when it comes to performance. Mostly I ride for recreation. I enjoy the opportunity to get out and enjoy trails. In the meantime, I feel like I'm developing my skills and becoming a stronger, more confident rider. If I ever end up racing much, I could definitely see myself investing in a pair of clipless pedals so I don't get screwed on raceday when my foot slips off in the middle of a critical climb. For now, I'll walk it to the top and try to remember to keep a more direct pressure on the pedal next time.

I am a firm believer that every tool has it's purpose, and that that purpose is made the most of when the underlying technique is optimized. "Strider" bikes vs. training wheels, raceday running shoes vs. training shoes, statistical modeling methods vs. physical modeling methods (any engineers out there??? sorry, it's been a long week at work...). In short, useful tools often become too heavily relied upon and, as a result, the fundamental skill and/or understanding which originally made that tool so useful is minimized, ultimately reducing the full usefulness of the tool.

Okay, I'm done. Stressful work week + happy hour = rambling posts...