Question about Pizza cutters...

[cramer]

I agree the PC's are a way to start erosion but proper trail design could help limit their impact. Also blaming people riding in the wet for the trails problems is a false accusation.

There is NOTHING about the design of this trail that is causing this. Blaming the design instead of the people riding it when they shouldn't be is a false accusation.

[irishpitbull]

Having been heavy involved with trail maintenance over the last 6 years, I personally I don't ride when its soft and muddy but I think the whole pizza cutter thing is over blown. If you want smooth glass like surface get a road bike.

The issue with pizza cutters isn't riding them, it's the damage the cause to the trail. In an obviously wet area, they help channel water off the trail, taking top soil and the trail bed itself off the trail. That causes more water retention, more pizza cutters, rinse repeat. It's the start of bad erosion problems that lead to future trail repairs.

The big mud holes often start as a soggy area with pizza cutters.

I agree a bit with you on this, but a lot has to do with poor design, Mayburry for instance has mud holes everywhere. This is not do to pizza cutters this is due to poor design and of lack maintenance. This is a problem with a lot of trails in our area, water shedding was not baked in with the trail design.

Some of the soggy areas at Pontiac could be attributed to pizza cutters or the fact the trail runs right down the middle swampy low area. The trail in that area is not burmed properly, as the trail wears from normal use, the trail area becomes the lower area trapping water in. Also the steep climbs have no water bars, this is WAY more of problem then pizza cutters in regards to erosion.

I agree the PC's are a way to start erosion but proper trail design could help limit their impact. Also blaming people riding in the wet for the trails problems is a false accusation.

I think before we scold people about riding in the wet, the organization should make sure its doing everything it can to prevent erosion from trail building stand point.

I think you're technically correct. The problem with trail maintenance that I see relates to the 80/20 rule. There are way more people who ride trails than fix them - and I'm speaking of SE Michigan. If the 80% fixed trails and made them textbook perfect, we wouldn't have any sand-pit issues in SE Michigan. Therefor, as I see it, wet trails should be closed to riding to prevent ANY AND ALL erosion damage that pizza cutters lead to. Personally I used to put in over 50 hours a year, but quite honestly, I like to ride my bike so I've cut back. If I can convince someone to stay off the trail when wet, I just saved the organization time doing maintenance. Its that simple.

I won't argue a bit about people not helping out on trails. It's kinda sad to be honest.

[c0nsumer]

I won't argue a bit about people not helping out on trails. It's kinda sad to be honest.

I personally think that a lot of people don't know where trails come from. Many of them think the mysterious organization known as "the park" takes care of them, or that they just happen to be there. Many trail maintenance organizations could probably do a better job making the public aware of how the trails are maintained, etc.

[irishpitbull]

I agree the PC's are a way to start erosion but proper trail design could help limit their impact. Also blaming people riding in the wet for the trails problems is a false accusation.

There is NOTHING about the design of this trail that is causing this. Blaming the design instead of the people riding it when they shouldn't be is a false accusation.


[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OR4E5lhNYoE/TzU2Q7vn2kI/AAAAAAAAACc/1Yc1-jVvJ54/s800/blue800.jpg[/]

1stly, trail design must have somthing to with it becuase that is a lot of tracks. Must be a sweet trail. I honestly think this is terrible, a bunch of *beep* signs even, but if it's a sandy trail, come dry weather it will resolve it self. If its clay, there will be some work to do.

When I was talking about trail design it was referencing mud holes and soggy areas. As you said trail design has nothing to do with this mess.

Is that on an uphill or what? Also what trail?

[G.Cook]

That's Luton Park. Could be any trail lately. Trail design has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with those conditions. The signs are a desperate attempt to deal with the uneducated. The signs will of course have absolutely no affect on people who just don't give *beep*. The only hope for them is that they trash the living *beep* out of their drive trains.

[Loren]

It's certainly true that some trail designs shed water, minimize erosion, and maximize sustainability. Rolling grade reversals on bench cuts into mineral soil on moderate hillsides is one such design.

However, there are many considerations that a trail designer takes into account when walking the land and visualizing a trail. Moderate hillsides aren't always available where you want them, the soil isn't always optimal, and you have to work with what you have to craft the mountain biking 'experience' you're looking for. Interesting experiences come from breaking the rules - fast downhills, steep climbs, tricky switchbacks - those are the features we remember. Any good designer considers water flow in their work, but to get from one place to another, sometimes you're faced creating a segment of trail on flat land that doesn't drain well. The soil's going to compact, and you'll have mud hole and pizza cutter issues like this. Those are tradeoffs that you make in a trail design, recognizing that you are losing something to gain something more valuable - more trail, a better experience. Armoring and repair of these areas is routine maintenance that you grudgingly accept and plan for, in the same way that you might plan on having to rebuild a bridge every 15 years, fix the lip on a dirt jump, or redefine a berm into a favorite corner. That a trail requires maintenance doesn't mean its poorly designed.

I've had very little to do with the design of the Lakeshore Park trails. It's a trail system that requires a lot of maintenance each year, even more now that its gotten so popular. Soft loam over non-draining clay, intersected by wetlands, less than 35 feet of elevation over the water level of Walled Lake - of course there are water and rut issues. It's flat - there's just no place for the water to drain in some areas. Despite these maintenance issues, I think it's actually a very well designed trail that makes the most of the land and providing a pretty interesting, varied experience out of a non-optimal site. Fortunately, it's well loved by enough people that the maintenance never seems overwhelming.

Maybury could use some work. We had some focused trail work last year, trimming and filling in some muddy areas, and the DNR has armored some trouble spots. Our last large trail day was a couple years ago where we fixed some significant problems:



Perhaps we can do more this year.

[cramer]

When I was talking about trail design it was referencing mud holes and soggy areas. As you said trail design has nothing to do with this mess.

Is that on an uphill or what? Also what trail?

There are mud holes on trails, and many of them stay wet most of the year, but that's not really what we're talking about with the pizza cutters. We're talking about a specific issue where the snow has melted along with the top layer of soil, yet the soil below that is still frozen preventing proper drainage.

I don't have any problems with people riding in the mud on those trails that you describe that have mud issues that are just plain part of the design. It's unreasonable to expect people to stay off a trail in that situation.

In the picture above at Luton, that is a flat spot actually, at the top of a small hill. It's a spot that is dry hard pack in the summer 99% of the time and it normally doesn't get rutted up like this and has no drainage issues at all. I suspect this is and the rest of that 1 mile orange loop are the worst in terms of damage because I think people come out there and ride that short loop as a "test" loop to see how muddy the trail really is, then go ride roads or go home if seems too soft. I personally know of two people that did that recently out there. With the other two most popular trails in the area closed most of the winter, this trail took all of the punishment on the unseasonably warm days we've had recently.

[Roy]

I bet that there would be less riders on that trail if they took that stupid sign down. That sign can have a reverse affect on a lot of riders.
Here is why:
These signs are usually are left up long after the trail is ok to ride. So, many riders learn it is ok to ride when they see that sign. The person taking the photo illustrates this point ( he road past several other signs). We, are over saturated with signs instructing us on what we can not do, so we pay no attention. Without negative reinforcement ( a ticket) people will learn it is ok to ride when that sign is posted. Maybe other psychological approaches might be Work.

My first thought is something like this: VOLUNTEERS WANTED! Please help the maintain this trail, ( insert contact info )
Or, at Island Lake, after the first down hill, Muddy ?? Turn left (pointing to the road).] Provide escape routes.

I Just think a different appeal might work better.
What creative approaches do you have to discourage mud riders??


Roy

[utabintarbo]

My first thought is something like this: VOLUNTEERS WANTED! Please help the maintain this trail, ( insert contact info )
Or, at Island Lake, after the first down hill, Muddy ?? Turn left (pointing to the road).] Provide escape routes.

I Just think a different appeal might work better.

I like this. I will have to consider how to apply that to Addison this year. Good idea!

[irishpitbull]

When I was talking about trail design it was referencing mud holes and soggy areas. As you said trail design has nothing to do with this mess.

Is that on an uphill or what? Also what trail?

There are mud holes on trails, and many of them stay wet most of the year, but that's not really what we're talking about with the pizza cutters. We're talking about a specific issue where the snow has melted along with the top layer of soil, yet the soil below that is still frozen preventing proper drainage.

I don't have any problems with people riding in the mud on those trails that you describe that have mud issues that are just plain part of the design. It's unreasonable to expect people to stay off a trail in that situation.

In the picture above at Luton, that is a flat spot actually, at the top of a small hill. It's a spot that is dry hard pack in the summer 99% of the time and it normally doesn't get rutted up like this and has no drainage issues at all. I suspect this is and the rest of that 1 mile orange loop are the worst in terms of damage because I think people come out there and ride that short loop as a "test" loop to see how muddy the trail really is, then go ride roads or go home if seems too soft. I personally know of two people that did that recently out there. With the other two most popular trails in the area closed most of the winter, this trail took all of the punishment on the unseasonably warm days we've had recently.

Dirt above said the pizza cutters turn into mud holes, that is were the mud hole discussion came from. I was just pointing out that there are larger factors creating mud holes then pizza cutters.

[cramer]

The person taking the photo illustrates this point ( he road past several other signs).

The person that took the picture was completely following the signs which say "Trail closed too all traffic when wet." He was riding when the trail was frozen and not wet at all. He was intentionally riding at a time when he knew the trail would be frozen.

[spokeywheeler]

Wow! lots of great info for a trail-maintenance newbie like me. It looks like the bottom line is that no matter what factors cause the damage, it's inevitable wear & tear and it needs to be maintained. I plan on helping out this spring, and look forward to the trail day postings.

[Di_bear]

Pizza cutters are *not* the way to add challenge to terrain. They are a threat to our access rights everywhere. They encourage other trail users to protest and put pressure on land managers. It's hard to read the signs posted at Luton as anything but a threat to our access. Stay off the trail when wet, in order to preserve your 'right' to the trail at all. Ignore the signs if you want, but we will all pay the price for your judgment.

Would you post those pics on MTBR or Singletracks to promote your local trail? Of course not, unless you aim to keep people away. Flow is a nearly universal positive trait for a trail to have. There is no flow on rutted trails. Slow, choppy tread sucks, unless designed to be such(like in rock gardens and tech sections). Pizza cutters are the devil.

This is what it's all about, RIGHT HERE. You can advocate for or against riding on sensitive soil during the warmer winter days, but the undeniable FACT is that doing so causes visible damage that is seen by both land managers and anti-mountain biking user groups.

If you wanna be the jackass that threatens our access to public lands on which we are only guests, then so be it, but don't EVEN try to persuade me or any other person with half a brain that riding on a 50-degree day in the middle of winter is just fine for almost any trail.

For the person who tried to argue that pizza cutters add challenge, you've obviously never ridden a well-built, technical trail.

[jajones]

Good God, I can't believe this dialogue is even going on. F'ing up trail tread when its muddy is not something that has any merit, or, necessitates any debate. It is akin to debating whether ripping bark off hardwoods along the trail is good or bad. You are f'ing up public natural resource infrastructure, either in the short-term or long-term when you ride in these conditions. All users should stay off the trail when it is mud soup, or, they are self-serving douchebags.

[Paul Brown]

Good God, I can't believe this dialogue is even going on. F'ing up trail tread when its muddy is not something that has any merit, or, necessitates any debate. It is akin to debating whether ripping bark off hardwoods along the trail is good or bad. You are f'ing up public natural resource infrastructure, either in the short-term or long-term when you ride in these conditions. All users should stay off the trail when it is mud soup, or, they are self-serving douchebags.

No *beep*, its not debatable and it is a tired decades old discussion. Every frozen weekend morning this winter when I was getting off the Poto there were always riders just showing up. All you can do is shake you head. Those riders were 3 hrs late at 10:30am and they F'in know it, they are waiting for the temps to rise because they are too much of a puss to ride at 22deg at rollout. No chance of convincing them and I wouldn't waste my breath. I don't buy the ignorance excuse, most of these guys, like some posting here, just don't think it is an issue.