Western: Owasippe

[cramer]

It's interesting that hiking is being allowed and biking is not allowed. There have been scientific studies on this and there is no evidence that biking is any worse than hiking when it comes to erosion. Why are they favoring one user group over another?

A body of empirical, scientific evidence now indicates that mountain biking is no more damaging than other forms of recreation, including hiking. Thus, managers who prohibit bicycle use (while allowing hiking or equestrian use) based on impacts to trails, soils, wildlife, or vegetation are acting without sound, scientific backing.

http://www.imba.com/resources/research/ ... ain-biking

[jrshome]

It's interesting that hiking is being allowed and biking is not allowed. There have been scientific studies on this and there is no evidence that biking is any worse than hiking when it comes to erosion. Why are they favoring one user group over another?

A body of empirical, scientific evidence now indicates that mountain biking is no more damaging than other forms of recreation, including hiking. Thus, managers who prohibit bicycle use (while allowing hiking or equestrian use) based on impacts to trails, soils, wildlife, or vegetation are acting without sound, scientific backing.

http://www.imba.com/resources/research/ ... ain-biking

They are allowing hiking because that is a core Boy Scout activity. As a east side outsider, this just sounds political. I am a Scout Master in a troop and I have been trying to get more biking into the Boy Scouts, but as a group they just don't do it. I have always been surprised that they allowed this trail to exist, the fact is the BSA is very uneducated about Mountain Biking and the old time diehards don't want to hear anything about it. Easy to hike when you are 50lbs++ over weight. Not so easy to Mountain Bike.....

Mountain Biking and Boy Scouts is a natural fit, I have done a couple of bike activities with our troop and the boys love it. If the MMBA would approach this a little differently, like say teaching the Cycling merit badge and help getting a Mountain Bike program up and running during Summer Camp(maybe a donation of some older MB's that people have laying around so the boys can ride the trails), I think the camp would take a very different view of Mountain biking. If it is not part of the Scout Program, then they have no long term interest in keeping this trial up and running. I think we should be pushing that all the Boy Scout summer camps in the state have a Mountain bike program, hook these outdoor oriented kids early, you will see a lot camps trails open up. Just my two cents worth....

[2WheeledWarrior]

Easy to hike when you are 50lbs++ over weight. Not so easy to Mountain Bike.....

It's easier to bike while overweight than to hike with the extra weight. But, hiking is familiar territory to more people. It's in their comfort zone and easier for them. That's the problem. Scouting is not supposed to be about what is easy or comfortable.

[RickPlite]

If the MMBA would approach this a little differently, like say teaching the Cycling merit badge and help getting a Mountain Bike program up and running during Summer Camp(maybe a donation of some older MB's that people have laying around so the boys can ride the trails), I think the camp would take a very different view of Mountain biking. If it is not part of the Scout Program, then they have no long term interest in keeping this trial up and running. I think we should be pushing that all the Boy Scout summer camps in the state have a Mountain bike program, hook these outdoor oriented kids early, you will see a lot camps trails open up. Just my two cents worth....

excellent idea, could you help with this?

[Bigtymer]

They said the closed the trail because of erosion problems, not because mountain biking isn't boyscout friendly

[jrshome]

If the MMBA would approach this a little differently, like say teaching the Cycling merit badge and help getting a Mountain Bike program up and running during Summer Camp(maybe a donation of some older MB's that people have laying around so the boys can ride the trails), I think the camp would take a very different view of Mountain biking. If it is not part of the Scout Program, then they have no long term interest in keeping this trial up and running. I think we should be pushing that all the Boy Scout summer camps in the state have a Mountain bike program, hook these outdoor oriented kids early, you will see a lot camps trails open up. Just my two cents worth....

excellent idea, could you help with this?

Rick, I am all for doing anything to try and get the MMBA and the BSA talking about Mountain Biking. If you would like to take this offline, feel free to PM me. This camp though, specifically is out of my range of contacts. I don't know anyone in the Chicago Area Council and I live on the Detroit Area. If it was the Great Lakes Council, I would know who to call to make an offer. What I can tell you though, is how to make the pitch. I think we are pitching this as, what can we do to keep this trail open for US to ride. The Boy Scouts don't give a *beep* about US. We need to make this about some Mountain Bike Program that we can do for them, that results in US also being able to use the trails. All these camps are fighting for the ability to stay open and provide a program that will draw troops into them, maybe to big a time commitment for us, but if you could come up with a great program for them to run during summer camp, that was a draw to bring scouts in. That would be what would really matters to them.

Case in point is camp D-BAR-A on the east side. They have a whole horse riding program that draws people in as a destination. If Owasippe, could become a scout biking destination with the help of the MMBA and this brought in troops all summer and fall, that would be something they would be interested in.

[jrshome]

They said the closed the trail because of erosion problems, not because mountain biking isn't boyscout friendly

I think you are missing my point. Boy Scouts is MB neutral. They have no MB programs. They due have a cycling merit badge, but it is focused on road riding.

If you are a Boy Scout camp that has no MB programs and you no nothing about a what impact MB has on trails, and the trails are eroding, what is easier than just closing the trails to MB? They have lots of hiking and backpacking programs, that is why the trails are staying open to hiking. I know that the Western MB does some tail work and pays to ride the trails, but I still think the best long term solution to the continuing problems of maintaining access to this camp, is to make them see MB as a core benefit to their business. That is running a Boy Scout Camp.

[RickPlite]

If the MMBA would approach this a little differently, like say teaching the Cycling merit badge and help getting a Mountain Bike program up and running during Summer Camp(maybe a donation of some older MB's that people have laying around so the boys can ride the trails), I think the camp would take a very different view of Mountain biking. If it is not part of the Scout Program, then they have no long term interest in keeping this trial up and running. I think we should be pushing that all the Boy Scout summer camps in the state have a Mountain bike program, hook these outdoor oriented kids early, you will see a lot camps trails open up. Just my two cents worth....

excellent idea, could you help with this?

Rick, I am all for doing anything to try and get the MMBA and the BSA talking about Mountain Biking. If you would like to take this offline, feel free to PM me. This camp though, specifically is out of my range of contacts. I don't know anyone in the Chicago Area Council and I live on the Detroit Area. If it was the Great Lakes Council, I would know who to call to make an offer. What I can tell you though, is how to make the pitch. I think we are pitching this as, what can we do to keep this trail open for US to ride. The Boy Scouts don't give a about US. We need to make this about some Mountain Bike Program that we can do for them, that results in US also being able to use the trails. All these camps are fighting for the ability to stay open and provide a program that will draw troops into them, maybe to big a time commitment for us, but if you could come up with a great program for them to run during summer camp, that was a draw to bring scouts in. That would be what would really matters to them.

Case in point is camp D-BAR-A on the east side. They have a whole horse riding program that draws people in as a destination. If Owasippe, could become a scout biking destination with the help of the MMBA and this brought in troops all summer and fall, that would be something they would be interested in.

jrshome- Nate Phelps, MMBA Pres is communicating with them. I like your idea for sure.

[trout_smith]

The idea about working with them on badge completion is great.

Does anyone know if they have a badge for trailblazing or something similar? We could incorporate sustainable trail building techniques. The scouts themselves could create re-routes during the summer.

If that all sounds too crazy - I don't know much about scouting. Just throwing some ideas out there. And I'm willing to help!

[cramer]

The idea about working with them on badge completion is great.

Does anyone know if they have a badge for trailblazing or something similar? We could incorporate sustainable trail building techniques. The scouts themselves could create re-routes during the summer.

If that all sounds too crazy - I don't know much about scouting. Just throwing some ideas out there. And I'm willing to help!

I think that is a great idea.

[blamp28]

That's is a good idea. When my step-son was in scouts, I was a merit badge counselor for the cycling badge and had 9 scouts complete it the year we did it. Unfortunately, that does not cover any off road training or land use responsibilities though it would be a worthy addition to their programs since they have trail systems at most or all of their camps.

There is a bit of sustainability in the Forestry Badge requirements and perhaps someone that is still involved in the BSA could lead in that direction. The requirements are here: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts ... restry.asp

[2WheeledWarrior]

OK, so....merit badges aside, is Owasippe going to be open on Labor Day weekend or not?

[trout_smith]

OK, so....merit badges aside, is Owasippe going to be open on Labor Day weekend or not?

Owasippe singletrack is closed until further notice.

[2WheeledWarrior]

OK, so....merit badges aside, is Owasippe going to be open on Labor Day weekend or not?

Owasippe singletrack is closed until further notice.

Oh, what the $&*#!!! What the heck are you doing over there, Eric? Get that place open, man!

[jrshome]

The idea about working with them on badge completion is great.

Does anyone know if they have a badge for trailblazing or something similar? We could incorporate sustainable trail building techniques. The scouts themselves could create re-routes during the summer.

If that all sounds too crazy - I don't know much about scouting. Just throwing some ideas out there. And I'm willing to help!

I don't think they have a trail blazing merit badge, but they do have a hiking one and do trail maintenance as part of service projects. For advancement to most ranks the scouts need to have service hours. I know that I have my older boy doing trail days as for some of his service hours. Also, some larger trail projects would make a great Eagle Scout project. All this aside, someone needs to convince the Chicago Area Council that have bikes out their is an asset to the camp, teaching trail maintenance to boys maybe another avenue to accomplish that goal.