Poto: Potawatomi

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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Czachorski » April 11th, 2011, 2:56 pm

If you rode and you did not leave behind pizza cuts in certain sections of the trail, good on you. You did nothing wrong. This time of year, the trail rideability varies greatly depending on rain, temperature swings, sunshine, etc. Many sections of the Poto are very rideable depending on when you choose to go. Many sections are also still in a state of transition and, if you ride them at the wrong time, you are going to sink in and leave cuts. On Sunday morning (before the weather turned), I inspected several typical problem sections of the trail, and found pizza cuts from bikes. My point is simply this: sinking in is a sin. If you can ride any or all sections and not leave cuts, do so. If, however, you find yourself at any point in time leaving a cut in the trail behind your ride, don't f'ing ride it. It is that simple. From what I saw, it was apparent that this rule was being violated at some time in the recent past. I don't get it. It is like a dog sh'ting in his own bed. I rode certain sections of the Poto on Sunday. They were sections I knew were good. This time of year, you just can't go out there with the expectation that you can ride the entire trail and that it will be all good, and this is part of my point. Just because you can ride 80 percent without a trace, doesn't mean that if you f up the other 20 percent that that is o.k. If you aren't sure what you can ride without pizza cut impact this time of year, then you shouldn't ride unless you are going to head out afterwards and fill your f'ing tracks in. I'm not a f'ing housekeeper and myself and a few (stress the word "few") other committed volunteers that have to constantly clean up the steamy sht piles left by a few selfish riders this time of year gets old.


The first half of your post was excellent, and is a good reminder that we all could use this time of year. Thank you, and thank you for your hard work on the trail. I support MMBA whenever I can with contributions when I see the both at various events.

The part in bold is where I got lost, confused, uncomfortable and I think where your post turned for me. If the rule was violated at some point in the past, then why are you posting on Sunday, the 2nd day of some good riding conditions on this trail, that people need to stay off the trail, dropping a lot of F bombs along the way? Shouldn't we be focusing on the conditions that existed in the past, and educating folks on why they are not appropriate for riding? Why focus on blanket labeling people who are riding it now under good conditions and using good judgment? It is very confusing and is at least making me uncomfortable even using my own judgement out there, for fear of reprimand even though I did nothing wrong.

You are still talking about 80% of trail being good and 20% bad, like we were on different trails. Sure, the wetness and stickyness may change from early morning to mid day (I started riding at noon Sunday), but "sinking in" conditions aren't going to change in a few hours - those are the results of long term drainage over several days. And I am telling you that on both Sat and Sun, what I observed was probably something like 98-99% good, not 80%. Sure, there are a few sections with little puddles and stuff - there always are, even in the summer. You just always have to be careful through them. Heck, I have memories of getting off my bike and pushing it or carrying it through some section of the the north loop last July and August after long stretches of good weather (especially at the one mud pit just before you get to the boardwalk next to the lake on the 2nd half of the north loop). What I experienced this weekend was no different than any other time I ride in the summer - trail in great shape, but you always have to use good judgement and be careful for bad spots.

I can tell (and have always known from reading here in the past), that this is an emotional and personal issue for many. And heck, it should be - keeping the trails in good shape is good for all of us to continue to have access to them, and to less the burden for those like you that thankfully maintain them. But you are making me, someone who I think has a good grasp of the rules, very uncomfortable. I can only imagine how someone new to these rules, who actually made the pizza marks at some point in the past, and could really use the lesson, would feel if they read these posts - confused, worried and threatened all at the same time.

I think it is a really important to keep the message non-emotional, as hard as that may be, and be consistent. i.e. that pizza marks made in the past are the result of bad decisions in the past, and decisions to ride in the future must be made based on good judgement and following some simple, good rules. (and checking conditions reported by others on this board). As is stands now, the message is emotional, confusing, contradictory, and almost makes me hesitate to lurk here and post trail conditions here for fear of reprimand. That would be a shame if others react the same way, as this board is an amazing resource for finding out about conditions and these rules.

That's actually the only reason I am here right now - to find out about trail conditions and report what I see. I am really disappointed to see such contradictions and emotions here.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby jajones » April 11th, 2011, 3:27 pm

What I saw Sunday morning were a number of very top greasy sections that had been recently ridden through and had pizza cuts in them. I don't know when they were made, but they could have been made Sunday morning, based on what I saw.

C., it sounds like you are careful and conscientious about what you are riding, and that's great. My post was meant to deter the person who is throwing their bike on their car driving out to the Poto and piling through the trail undetered without any sense of riding caution on areas of the trail which are still sensitive. There are many sections of the Poto that are still sensitive to pizza cuts, dependent on a number of variables (recent temp, rain, sunshine, wind). The thaw layer is still not out everywhere. Saturday and Sunday were no exception. I'm not saying parts of the trail can't be ridden. I (and others I know) rode parts on Sunday. But, people don't want to hear anything but absolutes. They want to know "green" or "red". Can I ride the whole Poto, or, can't I? I'd rather come out with "shock and awe" emotion if it prevents some Fred from laying pizza cuts down. I'd rather be cautious and have everyone wait a couple weeks than say, "Well, maybe go, but go under these conditions at these times and avoid these sections." THAT would be true cause for confusion. Everyone always wants to jump the gun this time of year. The result? Go look at Island Lake (as an example). It is ripped to sh1t by a bunch of Freds.

The bottom line is -- if what I wrote made some people feel uncomfortable and will make them question whether or not they should be riding -- that is great. That's the whole point. I'd rather have riders gun shy and overcautious than carefree and indifferent. If it were possible to simply say, "Green. Go ride everything in early April. It will be fine.", I'd gladly say it. But that is simply not possible. With this matter, as with many other matters in this world, there is often a lot more "gray" than simple "black and white" when looking for answers.
Poto IMBA Potawatomi Trail Coordinator
Jason Aric Jones, Chair
Waterloo Executive Committee, operating under the Potawatomi Chapter of the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA)


Fat Bikes are Dumb, Ride a 650b 27.5"!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby IFrider1 » April 11th, 2011, 6:46 pm

chong wrote:
Elno Lewis wrote:Thanks Czachorski--good post there dude.

++.


Rode Saturday and the trail was perfect (skipping gosling because it was apparent that it was not ready). JAJ - those pizza cutters were from about 3 weeks ago............
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby jajones » April 11th, 2011, 7:36 pm

Good deal, E. But, that's what I'm talking about. You know what you are doing, so you skipped Gosling. One of the areas I saw cuts was in Gosling. This is my point. It is hard this time of year to go out and ride the whole trail without encountering soft areas.

If you go, you've got to be prepared that you won't be able to ride everything without doing damage. Like I said, the solution is simple. If you are sinking in and leaving cuts, you shouldn't ride it. If you aren't, ride it!
Poto IMBA Potawatomi Trail Coordinator
Jason Aric Jones, Chair
Waterloo Executive Committee, operating under the Potawatomi Chapter of the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA)


Fat Bikes are Dumb, Ride a 650b 27.5"!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby adroit rider » April 11th, 2011, 11:03 pm

I didn't ride Gosling. I wanted too, but in both instances we talked ourselves out of it. I hate the concrete type substance that forms on my bike and shoes from riding/walking through the clay. If that stuff gets in your cables or derailleur pulleys you are screwed.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Elno Lewis » April 12th, 2011, 8:30 am

Well, i am hitting poto wednesday bout 5ish. i like dat Czachorski guy, and not JUST because he is of Polish descent either.

and jajones, if i notice i am damaging the trail, i will stop. i promise. and, try some honey, dude.

i love dat trail, and were hiking it afore many of you were even borned. Now, I gotta go yell at some clouds.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Geff » April 12th, 2011, 9:50 am

Elno Lewis wrote:i love dat trail, and were hiking it afore many of you were even borned. Now, I gotta go yell at some clouds.


Right on! Me too...but because I am on this earth longer than most doesn't give me license to not heed JAJs words and really really appreciate his (and others who put so much time in) passion into the health of this grandaddy of them all. Enjoy the ride and howling at the clouds...Gotta love it! :icon_thumleft: Us "matured" folks can get away with that more easily than the rest :wink: ...
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Elno Lewis » April 12th, 2011, 10:14 am

well, shucky dern, GEFF--we ought to get together fer a ride a Poto sometime.

yee hah! Hiked it as a Boy Scout many a time.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Geff » April 12th, 2011, 11:26 am

Elno Lewis wrote:well, shucky dern, GEFF--we ought to get together fer a ride a Poto sometime.

yee hah! Hiked it as a Boy Scout many a time.


Right on!
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Elno Lewis » April 14th, 2011, 6:34 am

The Poto was glorious yesterday...dry, hard, beautiful. I need to volunteer for some trail work there asap. Picked up some trash I found along the way on the trail.

I want to concieve a child on that trail some day.
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Paul Brown » April 14th, 2011, 7:32 am

First Poto loop(s) of the season last night (sans Gosling). At the 10min mark somebody converted the trail into a golf cart path :evil: , other than that the trail was dialed. Finally off the pavement and dirt roads 8) .
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Elno Lewis » April 14th, 2011, 9:45 am

Wut time were you out there, Paul? And, did you see some knucklehead going the wrong way?
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Paul Brown » April 14th, 2011, 9:54 am

Elno Lewis wrote:Wut time were you out there, Paul? And, did you see some knucklehead going the wrong way?


Rolled out of the lower lot at 5:05pm for the first loop. Didn't see anybody on a bike going backwards. Black and grey Roll Model Bike Shop kit, myself and one other. We were parked near the group who had chairs in a circle and were chillin in the parking lot after their ride.

sorry about the shameles bike shop plug....not
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby cmkovick » April 14th, 2011, 9:59 pm

The trail was in great shape today (skipped the Gosling loop).
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Re: Poto: Potawatomi

Postby Paul Brown » April 21st, 2011, 5:53 am

Anybody been on the Poto yesterday, April 20th? Looking for a condition report. Obviously the Gosling Loop is crap but I am wanting to ride (14mi loop) tonight if the winds have done their thing.
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