Western: Yankee Springs

[Bigtymer]

I know that Cramer does a lot of work for our trails in West Michigan, plus the wmmba party's he throws at his house. Also,I'm pretty sure he's the one responsible for the new trail between Luton and the Ski area.

[mntn-biker]

I know that Cramer does a lot of work for our trails in West Michigan, plus the wmmba party's he throws at his house. Also,I'm pretty sure he's the one responsible for the new trail between Luton and the Ski area.

X2

[dirtjunkie]

There was a decent sized tree down about 2/3 up "Who's your daddy Hill", which is roughly 5 miles in, just after The Pines. This was late Wed (4/4/12) evening.

Otherwise the trail is great.

I do not think the trail is great. Sure, there are sections that are fast and flow really well. But to me, other sections, deeper in the woods, are showing signs of significant abuse. Many sections display serious erosion and should have been re-routed years ago. These areas have deeply exposed roots and are increasingly dangerous. Some of the drops, while fun, have also become badly bowled out. I ride and race aggressively and have the scars and ER bills to prove it. Challenging trails are great, but land abuse is a different matter. Somebody needs to step in here and take better care of the trail system.

Just to be clear....I appreciate Cramer's efforts, and those of anyone who participates on trail days or any other trail work. I love doing the trifecta, and we are darn lucky to have the volunteers and trails to choose from here in West Michigan.....which points towards my point....

However....the gist of my direction was this:

I posted about a tree down on "Who's your daddy hill"...and that the trail was great other than that tree. The very next post starts with: "I don't think the trail is great..."

Yankee Springs is an excellent example of multiple user groups working together. There is a 10+ mile equestrian trail that comes within several hundred yards of the mtn bike trail.....south side of Gun Lake Rd....and they stay there. There are at least 3 separate hiking trails....they are awesome....which is why you don't see a ton of hikers on the mtn bike trail. The trail passes thru game areas....other than the occasional occurances, the hunters and bikers get along.

The soil is loose and the lay of the land is made up of abrupt elevation changes (thanks to the glaciers a gazzilion years ago). That's going to make for a difficult trail to keep up. When you combine that with a DNR land manager that has been resistant to change.....you've got a challenge. You're going to have roots and loose rocks. It's what makes Yankee "Yankee". Doesn't seem to impede the course from drawing one of the largest turnouts for a time trial year in and year out.

It is what it is....the folks down here do their collective best.....and I applaud them for their efforts, along with all the volunteers and TC's that get hammered with complaints.

Looks like some rain is coming for early next week....if it continues thru the end of the week, the TT should have GREAT conditions on race day

[cramer]

Good post Dirtjunkie, agree 100%. Just to be clear, the last thing I want to do to any trail is "dumb it down" or make it easier overall. The other TCs and volunteers all feel the same way, there is no conspiracy to try to make things easier. In the big picture, erosion is used as a weapon by anti-mountain bikers to try to limit our access because "I don't want to share the trails with those guys" wasn't effective for them. If we take away that weapon, we all win. The results are tangible with all the new trails that are in the planning stages or being built right now. Even that little trail we built on the Cannon Township property, there were people on the recreation committee that mentioned they were concerned about erosion. They had been to the state game area and thought that's what happened when mountain bikers were allowed on a trail and they were very worried. I was able to point to Luton as an example of a trail that was purposely built to be sustainable for mountain biking and that alleviated their concerns. Without Luton, we wouldn't have been able to build that new trail. I wasn't involved with any of the discussions for the other new trails being built or planned right now but I suspect the success of Luton played a large role in getting those projects approved also. If we had to use Yankee as an example of what a mountain bike trail is (as much as we all love riding there) it would be REALLY difficult to get any new trails built.

[mntn-biker]

From my discussion with 1 of the original trail builders, Yankee was 1 of the 1st legit mtb trails on state land in West Michigan put in back in the 90's prior to any IMBA trail building techniques so it is understandable why there are a number of eroded sections on the trail. If we let every trail, that we ride in this area to date, continue to erode like some sections of Yankee have done, it is highly unlikely that we would have received the green light from parks departments to put in more trail. Luton was the 1st park in the area to set the precedent and, from what I have heard, is used as a benchmark when talking with parks department heads when requesting new trail or added trail. It is used as an example of how a trail can be self sustaining with minimal maintenance built in accordance (assuming) with IMBA trail design/construction techniques. Without having a trail like Luton as an example, it is very unlikely that the new trail going in at 10 mile and US-131 would have been allowed. If trails such as the game area or Yankee were used as an example by the voices of "anti-mountain bikers" at planning meetings, the 10 mile trail probably wouldn't received the green light due to the concern of how the mountain bikes "tear up the trail" when, in reality, it is the mother nature doing the eroding on un-sustainable trail.

The WMMBA is responsible for maintaining and creating new trail and if there needs to be a re-route to prevent future erosion in order to get more trail in the West Michigan area, then I am all for it. If I want technical trail, I will head up to Marquette or Copper Harbor.

[irishpitbull]

From my discussion with 1 of the original trail builders, Yankee was 1 of the 1st legit mtb trails on state land in West Michigan put in back in the 90's prior to any IMBA trail building techniques so it is understandable why there are a number of eroded sections on the trail. If we let every trail, that we ride in this area to date, continue to erode like some sections of Yankee have done, it is highly unlikely that we would have received the green light from parks departments to put in more trail. Luton was the 1st park in the area to set the precedent and, from what I have heard, is used as a benchmark when talking with parks department heads when requesting new trail or added trail. It is used as an example of how a trail can be self sustaining with minimal maintenance built in accordance (assuming) with IMBA trail design/construction techniques. Without having a trail like Luton as an example, it is very unlikely that the new trail going in at 10 mile and US-131 would have been allowed. If trails such as the game area or Yankee were used as an example by the voices of "anti-mountain bikers" at planning meetings, the 10 mile trail probably wouldn't received the green light due to the concern of how the mountain bikes "tear up the trail" when, in reality, it is the mother nature doing the eroding on un-sustainable trail.

The WMMBA is responsible for maintaining and creating new trail and if there needs to be a re-route to prevent future erosion in order to get more trail in the West Michigan area, then I am all for it. If I want technical trail, I will head up to Marquette or Copper Harbor.

We shouldn't have to drive 10 hours to find technical trails. The is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Trails should be built with difficulty, fun factor, and sustainability in mind to keep people interested, not designed for every 12 year old on a walmart to be able clear with out a challenge.

[mntn-biker]

From my discussion with 1 of the original trail builders, Yankee was 1 of the 1st legit mtb trails on state land in West Michigan put in back in the 90's prior to any IMBA trail building techniques so it is understandable why there are a number of eroded sections on the trail. If we let every trail, that we ride in this area to date, continue to erode like some sections of Yankee have done, it is highly unlikely that we would have received the green light from parks departments to put in more trail. Luton was the 1st park in the area to set the precedent and, from what I have heard, is used as a benchmark when talking with parks department heads when requesting new trail or added trail. It is used as an example of how a trail can be self sustaining with minimal maintenance built in accordance (assuming) with IMBA trail design/construction techniques. Without having a trail like Luton as an example, it is very unlikely that the new trail going in at 10 mile and US-131 would have been allowed. If trails such as the game area or Yankee were used as an example by the voices of "anti-mountain bikers" at planning meetings, the 10 mile trail probably wouldn't received the green light due to the concern of how the mountain bikes "tear up the trail" when, in reality, it is the mother nature doing the eroding on un-sustainable trail.

The WMMBA is responsible for maintaining and creating new trail and if there needs to be a re-route to prevent future erosion in order to get more trail in the West Michigan area, then I am all for it. If I want technical trail, I will head up to Marquette or Copper Harbor.

We shouldn't have to drive 10 hours to find technical trails. The is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Trails should be built with difficulty, fun factor, and sustainability in mind to keep people interested, not designed for every 12 year old on a walmart to be able clear with out a challenge.

Ok, forget I said head to da UP - I forgot that we do have some technical stuff in the skills park @ the ski area. The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

[dirtjunkie]

From my discussion with 1 of the original trail builders, Yankee was 1 of the 1st legit mtb trails on state land in West Michigan put in back in the 90's prior to any IMBA trail building techniques so it is understandable why there are a number of eroded sections on the trail. If we let every trail, that we ride in this area to date, continue to erode like some sections of Yankee have done, it is highly unlikely that we would have received the green light from parks departments to put in more trail.

Just adding...not arguing....

I came across an old Yankee trail map in my father-in-laws things after he passed. It was pretty cool to see! The trail wound thru the same general areas, but it was quite a bit shorter & did not include many of the features it does today.

I started riding there in the mid-early 90's. There are a few sections that are still the same, but quite a few of the old trailways have been re-routed to what we currently ride there. I can point them out....but they have filled in quite nicely since the re-routes.

Some of the sections that people deem as "wide" used to be fire roads....both "Guard Rail Hill" and "Who's your daddy" are two examples. The high banks and wide paths were created by vehicles dating back a long, long time ago. The banks weren't created by the mountain bike trail.

Again....due to the soil consistency and the terrain, even deer runways cut themselves into the earth and groove substantial trails with erosion. I understand the concern and need to represent mountain biking in a positive, low impact manner. With that said, the Yankee Springs Rec area has represented a destination for many different user groups to come and enjoy. My hope is that will continue. But having our own user group blast it for being a bad representation of our sport is not doing "us" any favors. Send the TC a note....volunteer to lend a hand.....but don't give those that oppose us any fuel for their fire.

[cramer]

The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

Ironically there are sustainable tech features built in to Luton that are more challenging than anything at Yankee but they're mostly overgrown due to complete lack of interest from 99% of the riders.

[G.R.XC-MTNBKR]

The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

Ironically there are sustainable tech features built in to Luton that are more challenging than anything at Yankee but they're mostly overgrown due to complete lack of interest from 99% of the riders.

Please let me know were they are, must have missed them, not sarcasm either, I guess difficuly level is subjective though. You cant compare yankee to luton imo. But I still enjoy luton for an easy ride, its great to have around. When is the last time MMBA built an intermediate/advanced level trail?

[irishpitbull]

The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

Ironically there are sustainable tech features built in to Luton that are more challenging than anything at Yankee but they're mostly overgrown due to complete lack of interest from 99% of the riders.

Please let me know were they are, must have missed them, not sarcasm either, I guess difficuly level is subjective though. You cant compare yankee to luton imo. But I still enjoy luton for an easy ride, its great to have around. When is the last time MMBA built an intermediate/advanced level trail?

I would say highland? But other than the climbs there ain't much. If a 12 year old on a walmart bike can't do it, it won't get built.

No disrespect intended. The lack of a true destination trail in the lower - lower Michigan is the proof of that. Given our abundance of elevation changes I think opportunities were missed.

[cramer]

The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

Ironically there are sustainable tech features built in to Luton that are more challenging than anything at Yankee but they're mostly overgrown due to complete lack of interest from 99% of the riders.

Please let me know were they are, must have missed them, not sarcasm either, I guess difficuly level is subjective though. You cant compare yankee to luton imo. But I still enjoy luton for an easy ride, its great to have around. When is the last time MMBA built an intermediate/advanced level trail?

Three tech features built at Luton off the top of my head are the rock garden to the right side of the main trail toward the end of the orange loop, the big rock pile at the end of the black loop (most people ride the easier line on the inside) and that rock stair step that was built on the yellow loop which looks to me like it's not getting used much. All of these were built or included intentionally to provide technical challenges for people that want them. I'm not saying these things are super challenging or anything, just that I can't think of anything at Yankee that is more difficult than any of these things in terms of skill requirement. I can't think of any technical features that were intentional at Yankee except maybe a log pile or two and they're pretty small. Some of the washed out steep climbs at Yankee can be challenging on a singlespeed though, especially in a race where you're already tired when you get to them. I guess I wasn't considering those as technical challenges but instead they are things that require strength or power more than skill... but they are challenges.

Regarding intermediate / advanced trails being built - the skills park and the downhill run at Cannonsburg Ski Area have to qualify for that, those were built by the MMBA. As I mentioned before, when you see the relatively easy tech features virtually ignored at Luton, it doesn't make sense to build a whole trail full of them somewhere. I mean if this is what people want, why does almost everyone that rides out there ride around the ones we have? That being said, if you think this would be a big hit, I think you should consider doing something about it, get something built. I got permission to build some trails on the township property where I live last summer. The MMBA helped me out and it would never have happened without their help, but at the same time, it would never have happened without me getting the ball rolling either. If you can dream it, you can do it!

[AllMountin']

I envy and respect the initiative of you Western folks. You guys are gettin' things done out there.

I fully believe in sustainable, IMBA spec trail building(but still enjoy riding classic fall line stuff too). I honestly think that anyone who doesn't- probably hasn't ridden enough well designed trails of that type.

Someone mentioned replacing eroded, accidental tech at Yankee with optional, intentional tech with bypasses. I would only caution that doing so would *drastically* change the character of the time trial. Right now you have some gnarly roots, and washed out tech that is located on the singular line option. By adding bypasses to now optional features, the bypass becomes the race line, which means that you will be dumbing down the race into a glorified road ride.

I exaggerate a bit there, but do consider: *If* you use bypasses, the Yankee Springs Time Trial will cease to be the kind of challenge that it is/has been for years. You may as well plant weeds on the tech, because it won't get ridden. Riders are lazy. Give them an easy/fast option, and they *will* take it 9/10 times.

[G.R.XC-MTNBKR]

The bigger picture that Cramer and myself are trying to paint is that if we want more (unpaved) trail here in West Michigan, the trails will need to be put in like those at Luton which is unfortunate for all those that want more technical features. I like technical sections of trail, don't get me wrong, but I would give that up to have more riding options here in West Michigan.

Ironically there are sustainable tech features built in to Luton that are more challenging than anything at Yankee but they're mostly overgrown due to complete lack of interest from 99% of the riders.

Please let me know were they are, must have missed them, not sarcasm either, I guess difficuly level is subjective though. You cant compare yankee to luton imo. But I still enjoy luton for an easy ride, its great to have around. When is the last time MMBA built an intermediate/advanced level trail?

Three tech features built at Luton off the top of my head are the rock garden to the right side of the main trail toward the end of the orange loop, the big rock pile at the end of the black loop (most people ride the easier line on the inside) and that rock stair step that was built on the yellow loop which looks to me like it's not getting used much. All of these were built or included intentionally to provide technical challenges for people that want them. I'm not saying these things are super challenging or anything, just that I can't think of anything at Yankee that is more difficult than any of these things in terms of skill requirement. I can't think of any technical features that were intentional at Yankee except maybe a log pile or two and they're pretty small. Some of the washed out steep climbs at Yankee can be challenging on a singlespeed though, especially in a race where you're already tired when you get to them. I guess I wasn't considering those as technical challenges but instead they are things that require strength or power more than skill... but they are challenges.

Regarding intermediate / advanced trails being built - the skills park and the downhill run at Cannonsburg Ski Area have to qualify for that, those were built by the MMBA. As I mentioned before, when you see the relatively easy tech features virtually ignored at Luton, it doesn't make sense to build a whole trail full of them somewhere. I mean if this is what people want, why does almost everyone that rides out there ride around the ones we have? That being said, if you think this would be a big hit, I think you should consider doing something about it, get something built. I got permission to build some trails on the township property where I live last summer. The MMBA helped me out and it would never have happened without their help, but at the same time, it would never have happened without me getting the ball rolling either. If you can dream it, you can do it!

The skills park at CSA and downhills runs are more for the freeride/DH class bikes, probly not a good idea to take an lighwight XC bike on it often, you end up with cracked frame soon and bent wheels.
Yes I do remember those rock piles now that you mention it at luton, for the longest time I thought they were just that rock piles until I tried riding them. Like u said theyre fairly easy but better then nothing with bypasses for the average rider to go around. They just need a few more obstacles maybe something way more challenging.
So you think those low speed rock piles are more difficult then the rocky and sandy climbs at yankee, not to mention the heavily rutted drops going thru the pines, or the rutted, sloped descents going down into ravines, and etc? I guess we just have different opinions of what is technical.
I certainly do agree and wish I had a place to build a trail on, hopefully one day soon. The things is if its public land they want an easy trail for the masses, and thats what the mmba is building. Thank goodness for robinettes and the ski area.

[cramer]

Good points and a civil discussion about something that tends to get people fired up. I mostly agree with what you guys added including the fact that when given the option to ride around obstacles, most do it and in a race ALL would do that. In my mind, I dream of some tech that goes beyond what we have but isn't as crazy at the ski area skills park but then I wonder what exactly that looks like? Everything to me seems either easy or impossible (at least with my hard tail) and I sometimes wonder if that's just the way it is, that we all get really comfortable with the every day stuff to the point where it doesn't seem challenging yet stepping up just a tiny bit to the next level becomes "too difficult" even if in reality it's just a little bit more difficult.

I say let's take some action with this! We've got permission to build this sort of thing out on the new Cannon Township Trail. By adding something that doesn't exist in other places, we increase the appeal / utility of that trail which is good because it's so short, it sort of needs a unique identity. The trick is figuring out exactly what to build that meets this criteria and getting people together to build it. I want to let the trail mature a bit so I can see where the flow is before deciding where to add these things. Maybe later this summer we can have a brainstorming session out there and come up with some ideas. I'm not going to do this by myself though. Anyone interested in helping out, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll contact you later this summer when the time is right.

I think we hi-jacked the trail conditions at Yankee forum long enough though. If anyone has anything to add we should probably start a new thread in the general or in the Western Chapter area or if we want to talk about what to build at the Cannon Township trail, add it to the trail conditions area for that trail.