Riders say they're being locked out of the Pigeon River Coun

[skierduderules]

Careful there jajones, you may be right about flipteez - but you might be wrong too - unfortunatly there are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there. However, as a newbie to MMBA and the forums with very few posts myself I wouldn't want to shun legit new members searching for answers and trying to offer input. I agree we need to fight our own fights (and this one doesn't appear to involve us) but some of the hiking trail groups are resistant to both of us.

[Rufus5]

I haven't followed this tread very much but I may have some insight as to how these things get started.. A guy I met started a conversation with me as to how I felt to being restricted from the pegion river area on bike. This was back when it was thought that they were going to close the Shingle mill etc... He has been on an advisory board for this area for decades. He does not belong to this board any longer.. The original restrictions started in the 1960's /70's when someone proposed to the DNR that they wanted to have a car race thru the pigeon river forest area. Well to nip that idea they set out blanket restrictions for access to the area. Somewhere along this line someone thought that some orginization ???? wanted to have a bike race thru this area. Being the reactive (as opposed to proactive) the DNR started the proposal to limit bikes in the P.R. area. I believe my sources to be correct but I cannot verify this either. There is more to this story but ... this is the summary
Now you know the rest of the story.

[jajones]

Careful there jajones, you may be right about flipteez - but you might be wrong too - unfortunatly there are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there. However, as a newbie to MMBA and the forums with very few posts myself I wouldn't want to shun legit new members searching for answers and trying to offer input. I agree we need to fight our own fights (and this one doesn't appear to involve us) but some of the hiking trail groups are resistant to both of us.

I hear you, but it is more than just the number of posts. It is the rallying cry tone combined with pure misinformation.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'd be the first one to jump on the Director's Order or the DNR if I thought they'd done something harmful to access for bikers. In the end, they didn't -- plain and simple.

There are enough ridiculous closures and battles to be fought out there. I just don't want folks reading flipteez comments and start to tilt at windmills.

[flipteez]

Jason Wrote:

It is my belief that flipteez (with all of four historic posts to the forum) is simply a shill poster

Jeeezz Jason ---- !!!! ???? A shill?? I AM A BICYCLIST! Come-on, I didn’t know that ones credibility is based on how prolific one is with Posts; kinda tough on the new guys. I pilot a Santa Cruz Blur 4X, has VPP suspension, SRAM drive train, Swiss DH wheels and rims, 2.35” Kenda tires. Used to hangout at Latitude 45 in Gaylord, till they closed-up shop. My calfs are scratched and scarred from falls, bangs and scraping bramble. I AM A BICYCLIST, I know the handshake and everything; wouldn’t know how to saddle a horse.
I’ve never been totally happy with the new Concept. While I live near Jackson, I have a cottage near Gaylord. The Pigeon River area is one of my favorite areas to ride and while I ride Shingle Mill two or three times a year it’s the two-tracks and other trails (which are now closed, see below) that had me initiate this thread. In particular I like to ride Green Timbers. This is an area that spans the Sturgeon River, runs by the Honeymoon Cabin lookout and has miles of desolate two-track on the west side of the river; it is my favorite area to ride in the PRSF.
I initiated this thread because I like to ride my bike in areas of The Forest other than are allowed by the new Concept. I read the article in the Herald Times and saw the possibility of getting the Concept reopened. More trails, more places to ride, new areas to explore

Scotty wrote"

Which is it? Are bikes limited/banned? Or are they not? Can't be both.

Bikes are limited.

Here's what I can tell you: in the Director's Order it is states (I paraphrase) that bicycles are prohibited except from Shingle Mill, HCP, county roads and trails specifically designated as open to bicycles on the DNR access map. So I went to the Gaylord (heh,heh) DNR office and got the 2008 map. Sure enough, there is a set of lines that designate "open to bikes". This means all the other trails are not open to bikes. On the old Access Map there were no trails specifically designated for bikes. The new Concept limited and restricted where we can ride - we lost access.

As I stated above, there are lots of other areas in PRSF I like to ride and now I'm not allowed. I'm contacting the state rep in Gaylord that I established a relationship with last Fall during the fight to keep Shingle Mill and Pickerel Lake Trails open and will work to re-open the Concept along with those nasty horsers. I invite other mountain bikers to join me. More access! More trails, more places to ride, new areas to explore.

I like to ride, not shill - Jeeezz!

Jason, apology accepted. I am on your side.

[/quote]

[jajones]

Jason Wrote:

It is my belief that flipteez (with all of four historic posts to the forum) is simply a shill poster

Jeeezz Jason ---- !!!! ???? A shill?? I AM A BICYCLIST! Come-on, I didn’t know that ones credibility is based on how prolific one is with Posts; kinda tough on the new guys. I pilot a Santa Cruz Blur 4X, has VPP suspension, SRAM drive train, Swiss DH wheels and rims, 2.35” Kenda tires. Used to hangout at Latitude 45 in Gaylord, till they closed-up shop. My calfs are scratched and scarred from falls, bangs and scraping bramble. I AM A BICYCLIST, I know the handshake and everything; wouldn’t know how to saddle a horse.
I’ve never been totally happy with the new Concept. While I live near Jackson, I have a cottage near Gaylord. The Pigeon River area is one of my favorite areas to ride and while I ride Shingle Mill two or three times a year it’s the two-tracks and other trails (which are now closed, see below) that had me initiate this thread. In particular I like to ride Green Timbers. This is an area that spans the Sturgeon River, runs by the Honeymoon Cabin lookout and has miles of desolate two-track on the west side of the river; it is my favorite area to ride in the PRSF.
I initiated this thread because I like to ride my bike in areas of The Forest other than are allowed by the new Concept. I read the article in the Herald Times and saw the possibility of getting the Concept reopened. More trails, more places to ride, new areas to explore

Scotty wrote"

Which is it? Are bikes limited/banned? Or are they not? Can't be both.

Bikes are limited.

Here's what I can tell you: in the Director's Order it is states (I paraphrase) that bicycles are prohibited except from Shingle Mill, HCP, county roads and trails specifically designated as open to bicycles on the DNR access map. So I went to the Gaylord (heh,heh) DNR office and got the 2008 map. Sure enough, there is a set of lines that designate "open to bikes". This means all the other trails are not open to bikes. On the old Access Map there were no trails specifically designated for bikes. The new Concept limited and restricted where we can ride - we lost access.

As I stated above, there are lots of other areas in PRSF I like to ride and now I'm not allowed. I'm contacting the state rep in Gaylord that I established a relationship with last Fall during the fight to keep Shingle Mill and Pickerel Lake Trails open and will work to re-open the Concept along with those nasty horsers. I invite other mountain bikers to join me. More access! More trails, more places to ride, new areas to explore.

I like to ride, not shill - Jeeezz!

Jason, apology accepted. I am on your side.

[/quote]

Great. Then please accept my apology, flipteez!

I'm going to research this a bit more, as it doesn't meet with my understanding of what was supposed to be implemented. I'd like to see a copy of this new map. I'll get with Eric I. of the Northern Chapter and discuss it with him.

Thanks for your input, and, again, I apologize for jumping on you prematurely.

[flipteez]

Thanks Jason.

I appreciate your willingness and trust that you realize that I'm sincere in my belief that we are shut-out of many trails in the PRSF . I also hope that the lightness of my mood is evident in my postings.

[SPAMINATOR]

You know, I really thought I was done with this very lengthy and time consuming project.

Here is the deal - We have the same access as before except - we are not allowed to ride our bikes cross country. End of story.

I appreciate your zeal with this flipteez but I will not get involved either individually nor officially as the key player within the MMBA. The DNR recognizes our contributions, reopened closed trails and gave us back what we lost. The 2008 map you are referring to is an old document considering the Land Use Order did not get signed into law until May of this year.

If the media, our local rep or anyone else wants to contact me they will get the same story as I have given them already. "The MMBA is happy with the decision regarding the state of the Pigeon River Forest and happy with the relationship we have established with the DNR."

Don't always believe what you read in the papers. The reporter was obviously saddened when I didn't get on the equestrian band wagon and shout foul at the DNR during my interview with them. (Did they print any of my comments? I don't read the paper and really don't care what they print).

We won that battle. There are plenty more battles to be fought than in the PRC. Pick your battles carefully. This is one that has already been won by our side so my official and personal advice is to leave it alone.

Thank you for this opportunity to, once again, explain what happened during the many months of meetings, phone calls and emails to help us retain what was initially taken away.

[SPAMINATOR]

By the way, Jason, I liked your comment "we are not the Michigan Mountain Biking and Equestrian Association." Right on man.

I have received numerous calls as well from equestrians wanting us to jump on the bandwagon. I tell them what I had printed above. "We are happy..."

Flipteez, great enthusiasm. Try to find a cause that can use it instead of flogging a dead horse (pun intended). The law is already established and won't change for another ten years or more.

Instead of fighting this nonfight, when you ride the SMP the few times a year you do, watch for equestrian poaching and report that to the DNR. BTW -"the few times..." is not a dig, just a paraphrase of your earlier post.

Again, I really appreciate your enthusiasm and could have used you 8 months ago!

IS THIS DONE YET

[skiracer]

What flipteez states is true. Under the old Concept of Management bicyclists had unlimited access. They were free to go where ever they pleased, both on and off the trail.

The new Concept of Management restricts bicyclists to the High Country Pathway, the Shingle Mill Pathway, the Pickerel Lake Pathway, county roads and state forest roads designated and illustrated as open on the Pigeon River Country State Forest access map. What bicyclists lost is access to ride places like the Midland to Mackinac Trail, Green Timbers, Blue Lakes and from what I have heard, a fair number of DNR two tracks. I haven't seen an updated forest access map of the PRC to know just how much we lost. One note, the Midland to Mackinac Trail and the North Spur of the Shore 2 Shore horse trail join together as they pass through the PRC. I rode this trail once, and that was enough. We didn't lose much when we lost this trail.

The equestrians also lost their unlimited access to the PRC and now have similar restrictions as the bicyclists. The only places open for equestrian use are the North Spur of the Shore 2 Shore trail, county roads and state forest roads designated and illustrated as open on the Pigeon River Country State Forest access map. Also, they lost about a dozen small camping areas that were open to them. Now, the only place they can legally camp is at Elk Hill Equestrian State Forest Campground and Johnson’s Crossing Trail Camp. I believe this is what they are up in arms about. Personally, I think it is about time this happened.

[jajones]

The new Concept of Management restricts bicyclists to the High Country Pathway, the Shingle Mill Pathway, the Pickerel Lake Pathway, county roads and state forest roads designated and illustrated as open on the Pigeon River Country State Forest access map. What bicyclists lost is access to ride places like the Midland to Mackinac Trail, Green Timbers, Blue Lakes and from what I have heard, a fair number of DNR two tracks. I haven't seen an updated forest access map of the PRC to know just how much we lost.

As Spaminator pointed out, I don't believe there is an updated map yet, as the Director's Order was just passed in May. It should also be mentioned that if a two-track or road isn't designated as open for cycling and there is a demand for it to be opened, this is something that can be pursued with the DNR (to change the designation) as there is nothing in the Director's Order that would expressly prohibit this. We'll just have to wait and see if there are roads or two-tracks designated closed that folks want open.

[skiracer]

Since the Concept of Management passed in May, the DNR personnel at the PRC Headquarters main focus has been to put in full effect. This includes marking which access roads are open and which ones are closed. I've heard that they have already updated the Pigeon River Country State Forest access map. The person to contact for more information about this would be Laurie Marzolo. She is the current land manager of the PRC.

[flipteez]

Spaminator Wrote:

Here is the deal - We have the same access as before except - we are not allowed to ride our bikes cross country. End of story.

When I read SPAM's definitive post I was ready to pack-up, declare satisfaction, offer my mea copa for wasting everybody’s time and go ride up to Honeymoon Cabin.
Case Closed!

Then Skiracer (from Gaylord, heh,heh) Wrote:

What bicyclists lost is access to ride places like the Midland to Mackinac Trail, Green Timbers, Blue Lakes and from what I have heard, a fair number of DNR two tracks.

This is essentially what my belief is and what my concern is.

About the map: When I first called the Gaylord (I’m all done with the homophobic heh, hehs – enough already) the guy (Andy I believe) told me that the new Concept had changed thing, but he didn’t have a new map. A few day’s later when I went by that office he did have a new map – parts of it in color – and it was this map that had (something like) “Bike Trails” specified in the legend. At the same time Andy also gave me a copy of the old map and there wasn’t anything specific about “Bike Trails” on that map. I believe that this new map is what Skiracer is referring to in a later post.

Spam – what do you think? I don’t want to spend precious energy for naught either.


Jason Wrote:

It should also be mentioned that if a two-track or road isn't designated as open for cycling and there is a demand for it to be opened, this is something that can be pursued with the DNR (to change the designation) as there is nothing in the Director's Order that would expressly prohibit this. We'll just have to wait and see if there are roads or two-tracks designated closed that folks want open.

Thanks for that.

This is my back yard. home field and I'll do as much work as I can to help if it turns out we need to fight to re-open lost access.

[Nelg]

Gaylord (I’m all done with the homophobic heh, hehs – enough already)

But I'm not.

(right down the road from Pigeon Bridge)

Jason Wrote:

It should also be mentioned that if a two-track or road isn't designated as open for cycling and there is a demand for it to be opened, this is something that can be pursued with the DNR (to change the designation) as there is nothing in the Director's Order that would expressly prohibit this. We'll just have to wait and see if there are roads or two-tracks designated closed that folks want open.

My take is that DNR is now able to classify what is a road in the Pigeon River area if it's not maintained by the county. That's just my take, but Jason may be able to better address it.

[flipteez]

Nelg Wrote:

But I'm not

I love it!

[SPAMINATOR]

Green Timbers has always been a can we ride, can't we ride part of the forest according to the members present at the various meetings I attended. I have found nothing "official" to this though.

The point that I think skiracer was trying to make, since he didn't attend the meetings while in AZ, was the DNR is still figuring out what is and isn't part of their two tracks. The meeting result that I attended was the two tracks and forest roads are still open to bike riding, although much of them aren't rideable due to the sandy conditions.

I will contact Mindy Koch, assistant Director of the DNR and seek her clarification.

The reality is this: We have hundreds of miles of trail, two track and forest roads to ride. We can't go off road into the forest proper.

The Midland to Mackinaw trail is really hacked up due to bandit equestrian traffic. This is more or less a wide, sandy unrideable(for the most part) hiking trail for the Boy Scouts of America.