Cardio Conundrum

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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 4th, 2013, 11:37 am

iamkickstand wrote:
c0nsumer wrote:
iamkickstand wrote:agree 1 million times over on a proper warm up and loosening up a bit.

I've become a bit of a strava dork lately due to wanting to find the science behind the training. I notice that my second mile running is always a lot faster than my first, my third and fourth are on par with my second, any further than that and I start to slow down quite a bit.


If you want to get a bit more serious about building up endurance, get some manner of heart rate monitor. A Garmin Edge (500 or 510) is really good because it can act as a central data logger for your ride, recording HR, location, speed, distance, everything all in one.

Then use the HR monitor to establish your heart rate zones (do NOT go off the estimates for your age -- it's too inaccurate) by doing an LTHR test, then just spent a lot of time riding in a low zone like 2 with as little stopping as possible. You'll see tremendous improvements in your overall endurance by doing this.

It's on the to do list, but not a priority.

I am very curious to see what the change is with a new saddle, overall my cardio has felt much better now that I am "in season".

Hunter, I rode around the parking lot while waiting for you before we rode the other night, I almost always do about a 1/4 to half mile warm up now.


It's definitely a commitment money-wise. Once you get the equipment it's pretty easy, the only part that sucks is the LTHR test where you have to go all-out on pavement (with NO stops) for 20+ minutes straight. That is simply no fun at all.

I didn't do any training like that until I was trying to get ready for LJ last year. I can definitely say it helps, as my endurance is now at a place where I never thought it would be.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 4th, 2013, 12:00 pm

c0nsumer wrote:
iamkickstand wrote:
c0nsumer wrote:
iamkickstand wrote:agree 1 million times over on a proper warm up and loosening up a bit.

I've become a bit of a strava dork lately due to wanting to find the science behind the training. I notice that my second mile running is always a lot faster than my first, my third and fourth are on par with my second, any further than that and I start to slow down quite a bit.


If you want to get a bit more serious about building up endurance, get some manner of heart rate monitor. A Garmin Edge (500 or 510) is really good because it can act as a central data logger for your ride, recording HR, location, speed, distance, everything all in one.

Then use the HR monitor to establish your heart rate zones (do NOT go off the estimates for your age -- it's too inaccurate) by doing an LTHR test, then just spent a lot of time riding in a low zone like 2 with as little stopping as possible. You'll see tremendous improvements in your overall endurance by doing this.

It's on the to do list, but not a priority.

I am very curious to see what the change is with a new saddle, overall my cardio has felt much better now that I am "in season".

Hunter, I rode around the parking lot while waiting for you before we rode the other night, I almost always do about a 1/4 to half mile warm up now.


It's definitely a commitment money-wise. Once you get the equipment it's pretty easy, the only part that sucks is the LTHR test where you have to go all-out on pavement (with NO stops) for 20+ minutes straight. That is simply no fun at all.

I didn't do any training like that until I was trying to get ready for LJ last year. I can definitely say it helps, as my endurance is now at a place where I never thought it would be.

The good news is XC riding is recreational for me (well all riding is for that matter) and it is where I feel my cardio is the worst. DH racing/riding (3-5 minute race runs) I feel pretty good and like I can still power through them, so my "main" focus and goals have been accomplished. :mrgreen:

20 straight minutes of going all out.....sounds like running a 5k, and I agree, that doesn't sound fun at all. Espescially on my heavy non rolling bike.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 4th, 2013, 12:28 pm

iamkickstand wrote:20 straight minutes of going all out.....sounds like running a 5k, and I agree, that doesn't sound fun at all. Espescially on my heavy non rolling bike.


You only have to do it once or twice a year to be useful, though. From there you establish a baseline and can use the numbers elsewhere. I can't stand doing it, but I think it's worth it.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby mtbfree » June 4th, 2013, 12:58 pm

c0nsumer wrote:
iamkickstand wrote:20 straight minutes of going all out.....sounds like running a 5k, and I agree, that doesn't sound fun at all. Espescially on my heavy non rolling bike.


You only have to do it once or twice a year to be useful, though. From there you establish a baseline and can use the numbers elsewhere. I can't stand doing it, but I think it's worth it.

Every year in my high school rowing program we had to go through a series of tests on the indoor rowing machines to establish baseline numbers, and this was one of them. The others were a 30 second anaerobic max. power test, a 2000 meter race-pace test, and 1-hour endurance test. We did one test per day, and the 20 minute test was probably the worst mentally, but the 2000 meters (approximately 7 minutes all-out for a fast high-schooler) was the most painful.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby djr21589 » June 4th, 2013, 4:21 pm

What is an LTHR test? Can I do it on the Kensington paved path? Or where would you recommend?
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 4th, 2013, 5:06 pm

Lactic Threshold Hear Rate.

You can use a test like this in many different ways for many different sports.

Yes you could do it at Kensington, on a day when its not all that busy and you can "sprint" for 20 minutes.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby djr21589 » June 4th, 2013, 8:29 pm

Thank you
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 4th, 2013, 9:16 pm

iamkickstand wrote:Lactic Threshold Hear Rate.

You can use a test like this in many different ways for many different sports.

Yes you could do it at Kensington, on a day when its not all that busy and you can "sprint" for 20 minutes.


Lactate (not lactic), and you can't really do it on a paved path. A road in a park is better. I personally like the road at Stony Creek, starting out at the MTB lot after using the trails to warm up.

Give this a read.
Steve Vigneau
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River Bends Park Co-Trail Coordinator
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby Doc_d » June 5th, 2013, 3:05 pm

20 minute efforts are mentally very tough. It takes a little practice to get good at them. Most people go out way, way, way too hard.

My best 20 minute power is a measly 240 watts. When I start a 20 minute test those 240 watts feel pretty easy for the first few minutes. Without a power meter I'm sure I'd go out at 400 - 500 watts for the first couple minutes, completely blow up and end up with an average considerably under 240 watts for the 20 minutes.

So when people say it's an "all out effort". They mean the best power you can sustain for 20 minutes. Ideally your power output during the first minute is very close to the power output of the last minute. If you start out "sprinting" you're going to blow up and end up with a poor overall performance over the full 20 minutes. So it takes some practice to gauge the effort you can sustain for a full 20 minutes but also have given it everything you had over that 20 minutes.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby djr21589 » June 5th, 2013, 6:03 pm

Doc_d wrote:20 minute efforts are mentally very tough. It takes a little practice to get good at them. Most people go out way, way, way too hard.

My best 20 minute power is a measly 240 watts. When I start a 20 minute test those 240 watts feel pretty easy for the first few minutes. Without a power meter I'm sure I'd go out at 400 - 500 watts for the first couple minutes, completely blow up and end up with an average considerably under 240 watts for the 20 minutes.

So when people say it's an "all out effort". They mean the best power you can sustain for 20 minutes. Ideally your power output during the first minute is very close to the power output of the last minute. If you start out "sprinting" you're going to blow up and end up with a poor overall performance over the full 20 minutes. So it takes some practice to gauge the effort you can sustain for a full 20 minutes but also have given it everything you had over that 20 minutes.


Well that sounds like just riding as hard as I normally do for like fastest lap times and such. Isn't that basically the same thing? Also can I do this test without any type of computer? or do I need a HR monitor?
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 5th, 2013, 8:54 pm

djr21589 wrote:
Doc_d wrote:20 minute efforts are mentally very tough. It takes a little practice to get good at them. Most people go out way, way, way too hard.

My best 20 minute power is a measly 240 watts. When I start a 20 minute test those 240 watts feel pretty easy for the first few minutes. Without a power meter I'm sure I'd go out at 400 - 500 watts for the first couple minutes, completely blow up and end up with an average considerably under 240 watts for the 20 minutes.

So when people say it's an "all out effort". They mean the best power you can sustain for 20 minutes. Ideally your power output during the first minute is very close to the power output of the last minute. If you start out "sprinting" you're going to blow up and end up with a poor overall performance over the full 20 minutes. So it takes some practice to gauge the effort you can sustain for a full 20 minutes but also have given it everything you had over that 20 minutes.


Well that sounds like just riding as hard as I normally do for like fastest lap times and such. Isn't that basically the same thing? Also can I do this test without any type of computer? or do I need a HR monitor?

You need a heartrate monitor to know what your average heartrate is over the 20 minutes.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 5th, 2013, 10:00 pm

iamkickstand wrote:
djr21589 wrote:
Doc_d wrote:20 minute efforts are mentally very tough. It takes a little practice to get good at them. Most people go out way, way, way too hard.

My best 20 minute power is a measly 240 watts. When I start a 20 minute test those 240 watts feel pretty easy for the first few minutes. Without a power meter I'm sure I'd go out at 400 - 500 watts for the first couple minutes, completely blow up and end up with an average considerably under 240 watts for the 20 minutes.

So when people say it's an "all out effort". They mean the best power you can sustain for 20 minutes. Ideally your power output during the first minute is very close to the power output of the last minute. If you start out "sprinting" you're going to blow up and end up with a poor overall performance over the full 20 minutes. So it takes some practice to gauge the effort you can sustain for a full 20 minutes but also have given it everything you had over that 20 minutes.


Well that sounds like just riding as hard as I normally do for like fastest lap times and such. Isn't that basically the same thing? Also can I do this test without any type of computer? or do I need a HR monitor?

You need a heartrate monitor to know what your average heartrate is over the 20 minutes.


Yep -- an HR monitor is pretty much required. This is why a bunch of folks have Garmin unit such as the Edge 500. It works as a very good centralized data logger for location, HR, speed, etc.
Steve Vigneau
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River Bends Park Co-Trail Coordinator
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Unless otherwise stated the content of my posts are my opinion and should not be taken as the official stance of, nor representative of, the MMBA nor CRAMBA-IMBA.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby djr21589 » June 6th, 2013, 12:08 am

I've been wanting a garmin for some time. The gear needed is just so costly. All I have is strava to log any data at all. I've just really started paying attention to the fact that I have made little to no progress. I'm coming to that conclusion based on my lap times at all of the different trails I ride. There is very little change, in some instances for the worse. I'm just trying to research the best method for training. It's difficult though everyone has something else to say. As of now I'm solely training on the bike. I'm kinda thinking I should start doing sprints or suicides. I don't know what to train either. Obviously train your weaknesses, but seeing as my major weakness is speed, I don't know how to train that. My lap times are reasonably consistent, it's not that I'm getting exhausted per se but that I lack the strength to go any faster. I'm pretty decent at climbs and I will purposely go into a tougher gear on climbs just to get that extra strength training in. All in all I'm plateaued and have no idea what to do.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 6th, 2013, 6:06 am

If you feel strength is an issue have you considered supplementing with strength training?

I still lift 1-2 days per week in season. 4-6 off season. Although my cardio feels bad im noticing my lap times are significantly faster than last year since I started using Strava again.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby b_b » June 6th, 2013, 6:14 am

iamkickstand wrote:If you feel strength is an issue have you considered supplementing with strength training?

I still lift 1-2 days per week in season. 4-6 off season. Although my cardio feels bad im noticing my lap times are significantly faster than last year since I started using Strava again.


Ok I'm calling B.S. on this entire thread. :)
How can lap times be faster and cardio worse???
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