Cardio Conundrum

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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby b_b » May 8th, 2013, 7:23 am

drmoorejr wrote:and of course making sure you have recovery time.

Can you elaborate? This is something I need to better understand. :)
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby irishpitbull » May 8th, 2013, 7:25 am

drmoorejr wrote: Do some back road rides, then finish up in some single track, then ride back home.



^ Great advice. When my buddy suggested doing dirt road rides last year, it sounded like the most mundane thing in the world. But it was actually pretty fun/challenging and we have great stuff all over SE mich. Now I pretty much add dirt roads to every ride.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » May 8th, 2013, 7:29 am

irishpitbull wrote:
drmoorejr wrote: Do some back road rides, then finish up in some single track, then ride back home.



^ Great advice. When my buddy suggested doing dirt road rides last year, it sounded like the most mundane thing in the world. But it was actually pretty fun/challenging and we have great stuff all over SE mich. Now I pretty much add dirt roads to every ride.


If you pick the right roads (use Strava to find the fast folks' routes for hints) and stick to less-traveled narrower stuff there's some darned beautiful views out there too. In Michigan there are a bunch of Natural Beauty Roads, many of which are just barely two cars wide, less busy, and intentionally not as maintained or cleared. They are great for such rides, if you can find some. (Northern Oakland County / southern Lapeer County has a few, if I recall correctly.)
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby Roy » May 8th, 2013, 9:04 pm

If you don't give your body enough time to recover it will breakdown - not get stronger.
Keep a record of your resting heart rate- take your pulse first after you wake up.
If that rate starts to increase, back off your effort. Get more rest time between rides.

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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » May 8th, 2013, 11:28 pm

I should be getting plenty of recovery. I don't have a chance to ride everyday.

It's definitely the climbs that are destroying me. I was trying to pay attention today. Rode A and B at highland. I have an injured left shoulder that was fatiguing terribly, so I am sure that isn't helping matters.

But, I stopped to catch my breathe at the top of a climb, allowed 2 guys who had been catching me to pass, dropped in behind the second guy, on the downhill that followed and the flat afterwards he asked if I wanted back by.....I declined, two or three climbs later he was gone.

I am hoping it just comes down to what critter suggested just not being in riding shape even though I worked pretty hard over the winter with running and lifting.

I may start timing a few loops just to see if i am improving, and just feel bad.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby Doc_d » May 10th, 2013, 1:24 pm

While running can help a bit, it's no substitute for working on the bike. There's a term for it which is escaping me at the moment but it basically means if you want to be a good cyclist, the most effective training is cycling. If you want to be a good runner, run. If you want to be a good rower, row.

There are a lot of genetic components that are fixed. However the one thing you can train is your lactic threshold. Basically when someone starts conditioning themselves on the bike they will start out with a fairly low lactic threshold. For example, you might have a max HR of 190 BPM. But your natural lactic threshold might only be 150 BPM. That means anytime you ride over 150 BPM you are on borrowed time. Once you start accumulating lactic acid faster than your muscle can clear it, you will slow down no matter how much your brain wants to continue. The good news is that same person, with training, can probably move their lactic threshold up to 175 or 180 BPM through training. That will improve their performance quite significantly.

You can read entire books on training. But assuming you don't want to get scientific about it basically do this...

1) Ride a lot
2) Ride really hard and really easy. Most people go out and ride at their "max comfortable pace" all the time. Riding around at 17 MPH all the time will make you good at riding 17 MPH. You should either be stressing your system or recovering.

Give it some time... It takes weeks of consistent work to start seeing the benefits. But over the course of a summer you can make huge improvements. Then the trick is to try to maintain those through the next season (which is where I *SUCK*).
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby utabintarbo » May 10th, 2013, 5:37 pm

Doc_d wrote:... Then the trick is to try to maintain those through the next season (which is where I *SUCK*).


You sound like a good candidate for a fat bike! :D
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » May 10th, 2013, 7:18 pm

why? Are fatbikes for guys who suck? :mrgreen: :P
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » May 10th, 2013, 7:20 pm

Doc_d wrote:1) Ride a lot
2) Ride really hard and really easy. Most people go out and ride at their "max comfortable pace" all the time. Riding around at 17 MPH all the time will make you good at riding 17 MPH. You should either be stressing your system or recovering.

Give it some time... It takes weeks of consistent work to start seeing the benefits. But over the course of a summer you can make huge improvements. Then the trick is to try to maintain those through the next season (which is where I *SUCK*).



I have 1 and 2 covered pretty well. I ride with 7 year olds, alone, with my fiance, and with some buddies, so all paces get covered pretty well.

I had hoped my crosstraining over the winter would have maintained a bit more cardio than it did. I think I am going to be buying a winter beater to ride on days warmer than 40* next winter, hoping that will help.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 4th, 2013, 9:08 am

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=119193

I think I have found the root cause to much of my cardio problems.

I did a simple 11 mile dirt road ride from the car dealership home this morning after dropping my truck off. I also had some discussion with 300hp about some issues he was having last year. my glutes and hams and even calves and quads started burning this morning VERY quickly when I left the dealership. Since I wasn't moving around up and off the saddle like I would during an XC ride the issue became rather apparent.

Breathing wasn't an issue this morning, but between bloodflow, nerves, muscles being used to support me instead of propel me, etc. I think the saddle is a huge problem. I won't have a chance to swap saddles out until sometime next week, which is fine since I won't be on the XC bike at all, but i'm hoping that my discussion with 300hp and our conclusion based on his results and what I am noticing that a new saddle should fix most of my issues.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 4th, 2013, 9:38 am

iamkickstand wrote:http://mmba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=119193

I think I have found the root cause to much of my cardio problems.

I did a simple 11 mile dirt road ride from the car dealership home this morning after dropping my truck off. I also had some discussion with 300hp about some issues he was having last year. my glutes and hams and even calves and quads started burning this morning VERY quickly when I left the dealership. Since I wasn't moving around up and off the saddle like I would during an XC ride the issue became rather apparent.

Breathing wasn't an issue this morning, but between bloodflow, nerves, muscles being used to support me instead of propel me, etc. I think the saddle is a huge problem. I won't have a chance to swap saddles out until sometime next week, which is fine since I won't be on the XC bike at all, but i'm hoping that my discussion with 300hp and our conclusion based on his results and what I am noticing that a new saddle should fix most of my issues.


The saddle and saddle height will definitely help, but one other thing that took me a while is being sure that I don't take off too quickly. If I just start going I'll get sore fast and burn out quickly. I have to allow myself to ramp up to comfortable pace. It can take me up to an hour to get warmed up lately.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 4th, 2013, 10:19 am

agree 1 million times over on a proper warm up and loosening up a bit.

I've become a bit of a strava dork lately due to wanting to find the science behind the training. I notice that my second mile running is always a lot faster than my first, my third and fourth are on par with my second, any further than that and I start to slow down quite a bit.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby 300hp » June 4th, 2013, 11:20 am

Chad,

Aside from a saddle that increased bloodflow and put me properly on my sitbones (a 155mm specialized) I started doing what Steve said this year, and it has made, arguably, the biggest difference in my riding.

One of my good riding buddies can roll out of his shop, get on the bike and slam the equivalent of puke hill at PLRA twice in a row. I tried this most of last year, and failed miserably. heart rate spiked, legs cramped almost instantly, and the rest of the 30 mile ride was no fun at all.

Now, even though I ride more often (but not dramatically more) I take a nice 5 mile rail trail path down to the trailhead. just spin at a nice 13-14mph on the way down.

When I get there, it's game on.

Commuting, it's harder to not get after it out of the gate. But, I make myself spend 5 minutes spinning in a really easy gear before I put effort into pedalling. This seems to be just enough on a commute.

On the way home, I can get after it.

Next time we're at brighton, we will take some time to spin on the dirt road and see the difference.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby c0nsumer » June 4th, 2013, 11:29 am

iamkickstand wrote:agree 1 million times over on a proper warm up and loosening up a bit.

I've become a bit of a strava dork lately due to wanting to find the science behind the training. I notice that my second mile running is always a lot faster than my first, my third and fourth are on par with my second, any further than that and I start to slow down quite a bit.


If you want to get a bit more serious about building up endurance, get some manner of heart rate monitor. A Garmin Edge (500 or 510) is really good because it can act as a central data logger for your ride, recording HR, location, speed, distance, everything all in one.

Then use the HR monitor to establish your heart rate zones (do NOT go off the estimates for your age -- it's too inaccurate) by doing an LTHR test, then just spent a lot of time riding in a low zone like 2 with as little stopping as possible. You'll see tremendous improvements in your overall endurance by doing this.
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Re: Cardio Conundrum

Postby iamkickstand » June 4th, 2013, 11:36 am

c0nsumer wrote:
iamkickstand wrote:agree 1 million times over on a proper warm up and loosening up a bit.

I've become a bit of a strava dork lately due to wanting to find the science behind the training. I notice that my second mile running is always a lot faster than my first, my third and fourth are on par with my second, any further than that and I start to slow down quite a bit.


If you want to get a bit more serious about building up endurance, get some manner of heart rate monitor. A Garmin Edge (500 or 510) is really good because it can act as a central data logger for your ride, recording HR, location, speed, distance, everything all in one.

Then use the HR monitor to establish your heart rate zones (do NOT go off the estimates for your age -- it's too inaccurate) by doing an LTHR test, then just spent a lot of time riding in a low zone like 2 with as little stopping as possible. You'll see tremendous improvements in your overall endurance by doing this.

It's on the to do list, but not a priority.

I am very curious to see what the change is with a new saddle, overall my cardio has felt much better now that I am "in season".

Hunter, I rode around the parking lot while waiting for you before we rode the other night, I almost always do about a 1/4 to half mile warm up now.
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