Trail Snipers....

[iamkickstand]

Can we just say that if you put in an elevated skinny as a feature that there should be a way to not have to ride it? And if there's a log pile, there should be a way around it. And if there's a giant rock-pile, there should be a way to go around it. (And who gives a rat's ass if the feature is on the main line or is on an optional line really?) Because if that go-around isn't built into the trail, it will be added to the trail by riders that don't want to ride (or are walking around) the feature.

why does riding a trail need to be multiple choice?

just like with skiing, there ought to be some runs that are built just for experts. That seems to be a lost cause.

In the 90s the biggest challenges to riding many of our trails was the terrain. You couldn't ride around a massive and steep hill. You couldn't avoid a long rock strewn downhill. The earlier versions of our best loved lower michigan trails had plenty of tough spots. With sustainable trail building being en vogue right now, it does feel to some as though the challenge has been taken out of the few trails we can legally ride in this state. Some of that is for good reason (fall line). But some of it is this ridiculous desire to please the noobs and a subset of cyclists who are awol when it comes to racing, advocacy, etc.

What's wrong with having a single trail that "please[s] the noobs and a subset of cyclists who are awol when it comes to racing, advocacy, etc"? So non-racers/advocates have to be relegated to some trail that you deem fit for them?

Are you guys so elite that you can't share a trail with someone who's just getting started in mtb'ing? You HAVE to have your own entire trail ALL to yourselves?

Just like with skiing, there ARE features built into a lot of trails that are built just for experts. What's wrong with having a bypass for the noobs? I don't understand the need to hoard an entire trail so that "noobs" are excluded from riding it.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about Whistler here... these are public lands that everyone's taxes support, and $10 more from anyone that opts in for the PASS on their plate.

And for the record, Michigan didn't build Island Lake at every opportunity either, there's only one Island Lake. And I'd bet a month's salary that every state has at least one Island Lake-style trail.

I hope you don't make a lot in a month, because even areas within michigan don't always have an option that easy for people to ride. Marquette, they have bike paths, and there is public 2 tracks, but there isn't a single dedicated mountain bike trail I can think of that isn't pretty *beep* hard and techy. I mean the pioneer loop is probably the "easiest" trail I can think of and it still has some non bypassable technical sections. Copper Harbor has a few non technical trails, but for the most part again, they are all fairly technical and not for the beginner.....

On the flipside, is there a single ski hill out there that you can think of (Besides Bohemia) that doesn't have a bunny hill (north loop) or a few blues (west loop and lake loop) or a couple black diamonds, (tech loop, east loop)?

I realize not all trails have a cool loop set up like holdridge does. But would it be bad to add an expert loop like the tech loop to mayburry, pontiac lake, poto? What about adding in a short beginner loop at some of those places? What's wrong with having a north loop at pontiac? and then adding some more tech to the main pontiac loop? Adding tech isn't hard, rock gardens, logs (not annoying ride overable log piles, but actual logs you have to bunny hop or climb over), etc.

Does it bother you that highland doesn't have an easy loop and island lake doesn't have a hard loop?

[Critter7r]

I hope you don't make a lot in a month, because even areas within michigan don't always have an option that easy for people to ride. Marquette, they have bike paths, and there is public 2 tracks, but there isn't a single dedicated mountain bike trail I can think of that isn't pretty *beep* hard and techy. I mean the pioneer loop is probably the "easiest" trail I can think of and it still has some non bypassable technical sections. Copper Harbor has a few non technical trails, but for the most part again, they are all fairly technical and not for the beginner.....

On the flipside, is there a single ski hill out there that you can think of (Besides Bohemia) that doesn't have a bunny hill (north loop) or a few blues (west loop and lake loop) or a couple black diamonds, (tech loop, east loop)?

I realize not all trails have a cool loop set up like holdridge does. But would it be bad to add an expert loop like the tech loop to mayburry, pontiac lake, poto? What about adding in a short beginner loop at some of those places? What's wrong with having a north loop at pontiac? and then adding some more tech to the main pontiac loop? Adding tech isn't hard, rock gardens, logs (not annoying ride overable log piles, but actual logs you have to bunny hop or climb over), etc.

Does it bother you that highland doesn't have an easy loop and island lake doesn't have a hard loop?

No, in fact that's exactly my point ... having OPTIONS... to not exclude some riders just because they don't want to ride on an elevated skinny (i.e. the trail should have a bypass for that skinny). I don't see why there is all the hate for people that just want to ride a dirt trail without having to climb over log piles or rock gardens. I mean, I DO want to ride these features, but not everyone does, and I don't feel it's my (or your) place to tell them they have to be able to ride over this log pile or else they can't ride ________ (whatever trail).

And no, I don't make a lot in a month, but I said that I bet every state has ONE Island Lake-style trail, and then you went off on a tangent about other trails in Michigan that are harder than Island Lake. Which doesn't disprove that Michigan has one Island Lake-style trail, because it has Island Lake. So ..... so far, my month's salary is safe. I wasn't trying to say that every trail should be as flat and wide open as Island Lake, but if you're going to put a teeter-totter in the trail, there should be a way to go around it.

And Highland DOES have an easy loop - the "A" loop. I wouldn't recommend that anyone go out there for their first mtb ride ever, but I think anyone in decent shape with an idea of how to ride a bike could handle it.

[iamkickstand]

my point was not all areas can support a non technical trail like island lake, and with the UP's recent desire to become it's own state.....

why would it be such a bad thing to offer more expert loops that don't have bypasses? I'm assuming it has something to do with the mindset that the trails are training grounds for racers who don't like technical features more so then it is to make it so beginners and racers don't have to dismount to get over a technical feature.

Highland A-loop is a beginner loop? Sure, maybe in marquette, or pennsylvania, or west vriginia or colorado, but around there that trail doesn't have enough bypasses to consider it a beginner trail

[utabintarbo]

That's a great fix and all, except

1. I have no desire to buy several hundred acres of forested land.
2. The kind of trails I would like to see do not exist around here not because of a lack of opportunity, but because we have catered to the beginner
3. I have no desire to advertise something that I would enjoy to a majority of people who woudln't enjoy it.
4. will they? Seems unlikely.
5. I don't mountain bike for business, I mountain bike for pleasure.

I enjoy your posts, I really do, I enjoy your snarkiness, but you're missing the point. We HAVE the potential to make nice technical loops or splits on the local trails, but everytime one is built, so are bypasses, which in the long run just dumb the trail right back down.

I mean, it's pretty obvious you know everything there is to know, maybe you can explain why other states don't all build island lake at every opportunity?

I DON'T know all there is to know, and I don't necessarily know the situation vis-a-vis trails in other states. I am pretty sure the situation in other states is different than the situation in this state. I am also pretty sure the situation within this state is different from trail to trail. As Steve (AllMountin) states above, there is stuff beyond his current ability within this state, and I am sure (from his posts) that he is very able. So where you are within a given state will have a material effect on the level of challenge presented to riders.

Consider the proximity to population.... Close-in trails like Clinton River Park, Maybury, and the Tree Farm will be visited by (relatively) large numbers of humans of vastly different abilities simply because they are so convenient. They all have some fairly advanced technical features with pretty obvious bypasses. The fact that the bypasses exist does not negate the existence of the tech features, they simply allow those who are less skilled (of which there will be many, given the population density) to have an option. Now as you get further away from population centers, bypasses tend to become a bit less frequent because the riders who will travel to these places will tend to be generally more skilled, as evidenced by the fact of that travel. Holdridge and, apparently, Rose Lake seem to fit into this category. One must consider the target market.

Also consider the cultural/political/legal environment of the area. Just about anywhere outstate is going to be profoundly different in a cultural sense than the Detroit Metro area. Land Managers in this area are very likely to be more wary of possible lawsuits than Land Managers in, say, Roscommon. Too many lawyers looking for work down here. I doubt 1-800-CALL-SAM ads are terribly abundant in Benzonia. All this is added to the equation.

In general, I think your points number 1, 3, and 4 kinda lay bare the reason why you don't see more trails that cater to your particular desires. Like it or not, the market in this area is for trails that cater to those that will ride them. Until you can materially change #3 and #4, or go ahead with #1, the market will decide what kind of trails we have.

[utabintarbo]

No, in fact that's exactly my point ... having OPTIONS... to not exclude some riders just because they don't want to ride on an elevated skinny (i.e. the trail should have a bypass for that skinny). I don't see why there is all the hate for people that just want to ride a dirt trail without having to climb over log piles or rock gardens. I mean, I DO want to ride these features, but not everyone does, and I don't feel it's my (or your) place to tell them they have to be able to ride over this log pile or else they can't ride ________ (whatever trail).

This is a very good point. We don't have Philosopher-Kings to inform us of what kind of MTB trail most conforms to the alleged ideal, we have lots of riders of all different kinds of backgrounds and abilities, most of whom pay taxes (in one form or another) and feel they have a right to enjoy the public lands that they have indirectly paid for. In our current system, they are pretty much correct. And, rightly or wrongly, the Land Managers are their voice vis-a-vis the MMBA.

[Critter7r]

my point was not all areas can support a non technical trail like island lake, and with the UP's recent desire to become it's own state.....

why would it be such a bad thing to offer more expert loops that don't have bypasses? I'm assuming it has something to do with the mindset that the trails are training grounds for racers who don't like technical features more so then it is to make it so beginners and racers don't have to dismount to get over a technical feature.

Highland A-loop is a beginner loop? Sure, maybe in marquette, or pennsylvania, or west vriginia or colorado, but around there that trail doesn't have enough bypasses to consider it a beginner trail

There aren't any technical features in the A-loop that require a bypass. I don't remember seeing a teeter-totter or 4-foot log pile anywhere on the A-loop.

And I'm also not talking about having a by-pass for a rocky section of the trail, but for a Gruber's-style pile of rocks, yes.

As far as the U.P. seceeding - you've got me there... Maybe the 51st state (New Yoop?) doesn't have a freeway trail like Island Lake.

[mr_opjones]

If you make a comparison to other trails out of state, they should be in areas that are similar to the terrain you are making the comparison too. Otherwise your point is moot.

[iamkickstand]

[

There aren't any technical features in the A-loop that require a bypass. I don't remember seeing a teeter-totter or 4-foot log pile anywhere on the A-loop.

And I'm also not talking about having a by-pass for a rocky section of the trail, but for a Gruber's-style pile of rocks, yes.

As far as the U.P. seceeding - you've got me there... Maybe the 51st state (New Yoop?) doesn't have a freeway trail like Island Lake.

No, the A-Loop doesn't have any "features" but it is a nice technical trail. I don't like "features" I like natural technical terrain, what I don't like is taking those logs or rocks out of the trail or creating a smooth bypass around them. To me that is stupid. You don't seem to have a problem with the A-Loop being too hard for beginners (though you also seemed to think beginners could ride it). That trail FORCES you to ride the tech or walk it. Not all trails should force this, but we shouldn't take the tech out of trails either. This whole discussion started based on people moving rocks or tree roots that were too technical to ride over for beginners, THAT is dumbing a trail down and shouldn't happen.

Can you imagine if people tried to do this in somewhere like PA where the whole trail is rocky? I imagine that the mindset is that if you aren't good enough to ride it you should hone your bike skills elsewhere....

As for skinnies and jumps, yeah I think there should be a go around, skinnies are "fun" but they aren't a technical feature, they are a man made fun maker.

As for the grubers piles, I'm assuming those rocks were there when the trail was made? it appears they were piled there long ago, I could be wrong. Either way I don't think those should have a bypass either. In fact, since it is labeled as an advanced or expert trail those rocks should be made into a fun rock garden with OUT a bypass.

[Critter7r]

No, the A-Loop doesn't have any "features" but it is a nice technical trail. I don't like "features" I like natural technical terrain, what I don't like is taking those logs or rocks out of the trail or creating a smooth bypass around them. To me that is stupid. You don't seem to have a problem with the A-Loop being too hard for beginners (though you also seemed to think beginners could ride it). That trail FORCES you to ride the tech or walk it. Not all trails should force this, but we shouldn't take the tech out of trails either. This whole discussion started based on people moving rocks or tree roots that were too technical to ride over for beginners, THAT is dumbing a trail down and shouldn't happen.

Can you imagine if people tried to do this in somewhere like PA where the whole trail is rocky? I imagine that the mindset is that if you aren't good enough to ride it you should hone your bike skills elsewhere....

As for skinnies and jumps, yeah I think there should be a go around, skinnies are "fun" but they aren't a technical feature, they are a man made fun maker.

As for the grubers piles, I'm assuming those rocks were there when the trail was made? it appears they were piled there long ago, I could be wrong. Either way I don't think those should have a bypass either. In fact, since it is labeled as an advanced or expert trail those rocks should be made into a fun rock garden with OUT a bypass.

Ok, so pretty much we're on the same page, but I think that there should be a no-tech bypass available, and you don't. I don't agree with removing rocks or roots from the trail either.

I guess my thinking is that I don't have a problem with a trail being difficult due to the terrain, but if you're going to have a man-made feature, then have a go-around, too.

[utabintarbo]

If you make a comparison to other trails out of state, they should be in areas that are similar to the terrain you are making the comparison too. Otherwise your point is moot.

I find it hard to read your posts with all that going on off to the right.


Not that I'm complaining...

[iamkickstand]

If you make a comparison to other trails out of state, they should be in areas that are similar to the terrain you are making the comparison too. Otherwise your point is moot.

why so?

How do people graduate from the sidewalk to a trail tougher then anything seen in SE michigan and have the bike handling skills to ride it if nothing exists?

How do those people make the jump but more than half the lower michigan people can't figure out how to negotiate a small rock garden?

Are you saying those in other states are more skilled then we are right our of the woom?

[c0nsumer]

I realize not all trails have a cool loop set up like holdridge does. But would it be bad to add an expert loop like the tech loop to mayburry, pontiac lake, poto? What about adding in a short beginner loop at some of those places? What's wrong with having a north loop at pontiac? and then adding some more tech to the main pontiac loop? Adding tech isn't hard, rock gardens, logs (not annoying ride overable log piles, but actual logs you have to bunny hop or climb over), etc.

I think this could be a good idea. Are you willing to work with the TCs (and land managers) and do what's needed to turn your ideas into reality? I can help you get in touch with them if you'd like.

[iamkickstand]

I realize not all trails have a cool loop set up like holdridge does. But would it be bad to add an expert loop like the tech loop to mayburry, pontiac lake, poto? What about adding in a short beginner loop at some of those places? What's wrong with having a north loop at pontiac? and then adding some more tech to the main pontiac loop? Adding tech isn't hard, rock gardens, logs (not annoying ride overable log piles, but actual logs you have to bunny hop or climb over), etc.

I think this could be a good idea. Are you willing to work with the TCs (and land managers) and do what's needed to turn your ideas into reality? I can help you get in touch with them if you'd like.

I sense a little bit of sarcasm, but yes I am willing to work with the TC's an land managers to try and develop more "tech loops" at our existing trails. The question is, are the TC's and land managers interested in developing more "technical" loops? My experience is that they are not.

[mr_opjones]

If you make a comparison to other trails out of state, they should be in areas that are similar to the terrain you are making the comparison too. Otherwise your point is moot.

why so?

A certain terrain will produce a certain type of trail. People not from our area are jealous of the wide open fast flowy trails we have.

[dirt]

If you make a comparison to other trails out of state, they should be in areas that are similar to the terrain you are making the comparison too. Otherwise your point is moot.

why so?

A certain terrain will produce a certain type of trail. People not from our area are jealous of the wide open fast flowy trails we have.

Right. A number of years back, a rider joined out group, having moved here from Connecticut. Having come from Conn., he was used to technical trails, lots of rocks and roots, and have a larger travel full suspension bike (back when 5-6 inches was big travel) He commented on how smooth and non-technical our trails where, and that it was totally different then what he was used to, even commenting on how 5-10 mile rides in Conn. would take hours, not less then an hour, like in Michigan.

But, he was also amazed at how fast we rode, and how easily we'd whip within inches of trees, while doing 15-18 MPH thru the trails. After a a bit, he picked up a hard tail geared bike, and a full rigid SS. It was when I was a newb riding, so he taught me and my wife tons about riding technical features, and he learned a lot from the locals about just being fast on our trails.

After a few years, his job took him back to Conn., and he left. He commented on how he'd probably be the fastest rider on the trails now, since he gained so much speed in his riding. But, he also said he'd miss our trails, because they were so totally different then what he grew up riding.

Every area, because of it's land managers, it's terrain, and it's trail builders, will have a totally different flavor then other areas and their trails. But, in the end, they are all a *beep* load of fun, otherwise we would have never gotten into the sport in the first place.